Could the Allegheny share the Mons fate?

[evw659]

http://www.fractracker.org/

Shown in the link is a map of where "frack water" or what the companies call "produced water" from Natural Gas drilling is being discharged into watersheds from water treatment plants after limited treatment. You can see on the map that the waste water is being discharged at numerous spots on the Allegheny(red stars indicating the exact location), with the same thing happening on the Mon. I know the Mon has not been in good shape in the past but i fear the Allegheny will have significant environmental damage from this.If your interested, do some searching on the web and you will see what is happening to the Mon because of waste water discharges. This is just the beginning of what is to come, The Allegheny is in serious danger.......

[McDunnoftheAllegheny]

I don't believe the allegheny is in anymore danger now or in the future than it has been in the past 15 years. I personally work in the oil and gas industry and there is strict regulations on brine water contamination and disposal, It does concern me I'm usually on the water 4-6 days a week as well as an avid hunter. And I can tell you all something, all this hype and fuss about frac water is blown way out of proportion, most of the "chemicals" used to frac wells are basic household products like dishsoap and hairgel, what does need to be of concern is what comes out of the ground itself, and for every well that is fractured .5% of the water treated is waste and we are talking about 10 to 40 thousand gallons. It's not anywhere near as bad as what people make it out to be, what does really hurt the enviroment is human error and irresponsibilty, when someone drains the water out of the oil tanks you see in the woods right on the ground and doesn't take that water or their frac water to a treatment facility this is what does the damage. The treatment facilities do their job some other's don't.

[evw659]

[QUOTE]I don't believe the allegheny is in anymore danger now or in the future than it has been in the past 15 years/QUOTE]
I disagree. I dont work in the industry heck im still in high school, but some things i have been reading about the mon because of discharges of treated frac water that isnt fully treated is disturbing to me. The same thing could happen on the Allegheny or any other watershed if the treatment plants dont fully treat the water. [QUOTE]The treatment facilities do their job some other's don't./QUOTE]
If the treatment facilities treated the frac water the right way then the mon wouldnt be in the shape that it is in now.

[Pescatore]

Finally, we have a large source of DOMESTIC energy and everyone wants to stop it. My question is: would you rather buy energy from other countries and destroy their land? I don't think anyone in America survives without some use of Natural Gas. So as long as we use it, we should use our own. America was built on low cost energy and a strong middle class. The middle class is diminishing and our energy costs have sky rocketed in the last 35 years. If we don't find a good way to use the Marcellus Shale Reserves we will continue to bankrupt America. I think McDunnoftheallegheny is correct, we need this energy and JOBS!!!

Sorry Red, if I'm getting to political

[Red Childress]

I have had several gas/oil executives in the boat over the past 3 years from as far away as Texas/Oklahoma and they are saying that the watershed fears are way over-hyped, if companies are following their guidelines. The big word here is "if", according to these guys.

This whole Marcellus Shale thing reminds me of the "coal rush" of the 70's and early 80's.....most operators/owners follow the rules but there will always be that 2-5% who cuts corners and puts the environment at serious risk for the sake of the dollar. This topic is in the Warren newspaper on a weekly (if not daily) basis.

It is going to be very interesting to watch this play out over the next 5-10 years. I damn sure like my 2.65/gal price as compared to what it could be if we do not utilize our own resources, however.

Just my .02 cents.

[evw659]

Look, i am not against gas drilling, i am against the lazy practices of some companies. Currently our infrastructure cannot support the amount of frac water that is going to the treatment facilities, therefore corners are cut. the Allegheny WILL be affected, to what degree i dont know, but like many others i am worried about the river, and am just trying to raise awareness.

[ttabaleulb]

I agree with you Red. This reminds me of the mining back in the day too. And there are still "clean-up" sites related to some of those. I am certainly not against an energy source and/or job opportunity. The part that worries me is that most of our "environmental protection" groups just don't have the man power to be on top of this whole situation.

I have not tested for particular chemicals myself but have heard that compounds such as Benzene, Toluene and Xylenes have been found. And there are other compounds that these companies list as "proprietary". Who knows what they might be??

It may only take one "accident" to devastate a stream or river. Hopefully this will not be the case. Although I'm not much of a fan of the possibility of my tap water being flammable as some people near a drilling site have experienced. They need to stay on their toes.

In the mean time, it would be nice to see what other alternative energy ideas are out there but its tough to make it past the "Big Boys".

[McDunnoftheAllegheny]

we already have one water treatment facility in warren and it hasn't affected the river yet and if it looks as if we are going to have another one in the near feature which is being because of the marcellus shale and the amount of water that is going to be treated. I pay very close attention to all that is said and done and the guidelines and laws are only getting stricter, if someone gets caught dumping untreated water feces will hit the oscelator, and oil companies will not do it because the fines are so great and D.E.P. will pull wells permits on the spot. And 99% of the guys that work out in the oil patch are sportmens and give a damn about what happens.

[evw659]

http://www.propublica.org/article/wastewater-from-gas-drilling-boom-may-threaten-monongahela-river

Read this article, it is very informative in regard to the wastewater problem facing our state. The reason that the Mon is in such bad shape now is because it was already loaded with TDS from the mining industry. The natural gas wastewater being discharged as a result of the heavy drilling in the Monongahela watershed, pushed it over the edge.
Let me make my point clear in that i am not saying the Allegheny is necessarily destined for the same fate as the Mon's. I am just trying to make everyone aware of the amount of TDS being discharged into the Allegheny will continue to grow by the day. As indicated in the article, the DEP knows that ALL of the wastewater treatment plants in PA cannot remove all TDS. The Allegheny will be able to absorb so much TDS but exactly how much is anyones' guess. It's effects may not be visible now or even next year but the TDS will continue to build as the drilling progresses. Hopefully there are a lot more plans for wastewater plants which can handle water like that produced from hydraulically fractured natural gas wells. Not trying to offend anyone, just trying to have a conversation about the future of the river we all love.

[Red Childress]

I do not think you have portrayed anything but a guy just trying to get the word out and raise awareness of the drilling waste problem. For a HS guy, you appear to be beyond your years.

Please keep us informed.


BTW, ttabaleulb is actually a Chemist by trade, not a meth chef. :)

[ttabaleulb]

Like Red said, its great awareness of the possibilities. We aren't all gonna agree on all the topics, but thats ok too. The more we all know about these topics, the better chance we have to make informed decisions when the time comes.

LMAO Thanks for that clarification Red!! But you're right, and right now, the oil in saltwater is still one of the big "hot buttons" in the analytical chemistry world. And I have a feeling that concern for these drilling sites will not be far behind in terms of water testing.

Like I said, I hope that we never have any issues with the whole deal. But I'm also a realist. And Mother Earth owes us nothing but we owe her everything. I'm far from a "tree hugger" but I also know we have to treat this globe with some respect.

[McDunnoftheAllegheny]

well lets just all hope for the best and do our part to make sure nothing happens to our fragile ecosystem. Bad things could happen, lets hope they never do.

[lowbidder]

The mon river is unique for several reasons.
1. There has been a very large amount of shale fracturing in the past 2 years in the areas surrounding the river. Most of this preceded the construction of wastewater treatment facilities within a reasonable distance of the drilling. This made treatment economically "not feasible". This resulted in a lot of illegal dumping into tributaries (possibly dunkard creek?). of course, where there is a buck to be made, there are entreprenaurs. Several treatment plants have sprung up very quickly. How well they are treating the water is up to the marine biologists I guess.

2. The mon river (in the MS region) is basically a lake. During the dry season, there is very very little current running through the river. The TDS being introduced into the river are being absorbed by less water and they're not being flushed out as fast as they would in a river such as the Middle Allegheny that is constrantly flowing even when the volume of water in the river is low.

3. The mon river runs through some of the most economically depressed areas of the state. Leadership in these areas pressure our protective agencies to "take it easy" on the companies that are creating jobs. It happens.

4. I don't know how practical it would be, but rivers like the Middle Allegheny and Lower Yough rivers have the ability to quickly increase the volume of water in the river. If water sampling indicates that TDS are reaching critical levels, the USACE could potentially increase the volume of water in the river rather quickly to help dilute the pollutants (whatever they may be) by way of releasing more water from the Dam. I think the Tygart and Cheat lakes are the only dams that contribute water to the MS region of the Mon. Both of these lakes combined couldn't contribute enough water to change the volume of the Mon river for any period of time.

For these reason, I believe the Allegheny and Yough Rivers stand a much better chance against the dangers of MS drilling. There has to be a balance. We need the jobs, we need the domestic energy and we need an environment that is not hazardous to ourselves or wildlife. Until green energies are practical, we will have to continue to drill and regulate. Who pays for the regulating? I hear talk of applying a special tax on the gas industry and that makes me sick because I know that instead of using the money as a "cleanup fund", it will go towards something like bailing out the state pensions or giving giant raises to Phys. Ed teachers :D

Hahaha...I couldn't be completely serious!

[Red Childress]

Front page of the Warren paper this morning........."Frack waste water treatment plant moving along as scheduled in downtown Warren and will be the first of its kind in the state".............."500 trillion cubic feet of natural gas is estimated to be held in the Marcellus Shale region".



BTW Lowbidder, this PE teacher will let you slide on that comment this time. :) Tell your Dad to get his casting arm rested for Saturday.....I have plenty of Ibuprofen for you guys since the doctor started me on Indomethacin.

[Red Childress]

Stated in the Warren Newspaper this morning..........

Carcinogens found in NE Pennsylvania drinking water. It is currently undetermined whether it was a result of the hydraulic fracking process along the Marcellus Shale region.

[Red Childress]

Based on the factual content of today's newspaper, it appears that almost every stream/river has been negatively impacted regarding the fracking process.

It also appears that there will some sort of PA drilling tax imposed in the very near future.

[ppalko]

You really only have to go as far as the closest Abandoned Mine Discharge to observe the effects of resource extraction without regulation. Every watershed in PA has been impacted in some way by AMD and millions of tax dollars are spent to clean up the mess. Now, even the DEP has admitted that they are understaffed in terms of inspectors and such. Gas drillers will be under scrutiny to avoid contaimination of waterways. However, large rivers will bear the load of potentially numerous treatment facilities (no technology can remove all contaminants from Frac water). Also, these same rivers will face removal of millions of gallons of water to be used in the fracking process. If you look at Dunkard Creek in Washington Co, most of the fish are dead and groups are still trying to point blame. Problem is, blame does little good at this point. The fish are still dead. Eventually, even with incredible regulation and such, a spill, a leak, an intentional violation of rules to save a buck, etc, will occur and more fish will die. We like to use the "we need jobs!!" battle cry and yes, that is certainly correct. But, we really like the places we fish too. What happens if despite all precautions, etc, a new treatment facility along the Allegheny has an accident? Or if some operator dumps a few truckloads of untreated waste into a trib of Oil Creek? (That already happened by the way). Can we trust that through all this, those places we hold dear will survive to be untouched by this new rush of drilling? I have no trust for ANY politician in Harrisburg and hope that somehow, the places we all fish survive to continue to be the great places that they are. Maybe this can be like Spring Creek in Centre county. Catch and release regs will be put into place all over the state because all the fish are contaminated by carcinogenic compounds. Just look at your PA regs book's list of consumption advisors. That's one way to promote C and R. Kind of sad if you ask me.

[ttabaleulb]

ppalko,

I agree with pretty much everything you said. And to take it a step further, we have to realize that not only are the "recreational" waters being contaminated, but the waters that we hope to consume in our households can/will be in a similar manner.

If we're lucky, a contaminated watershed could still support aquatic life and give us a Spring Creek scenario. I don't want to think of the other extreme. I just don't have a lot of "faith" as long as this energy source rules our world.