2 Walleye Bag limit on Flowage for 2011

[Don Pemble]

Here we go again folks, just picked up the latest Lakeland Times Newspaper regarding bag limits on local lakes, seems the Chips are in need of more walleye this year due to the poor economy, like it isn't for all people. Tribal President Tom Maulson along with our newly appointed DNR Secretary Cathy Stepp have agreed on a 2 (Walleye)fish limit on the TFF along with a few other lakes in other counties, when will the raping of our lakes stop? When you catch a fish (legally) by hook and line, you can release it if it's not of legal size or the size that you want to keep, pretty hard to release one that will survive if it was ?(legally)? speared???? My question is this, was the DNR secretary Cathy Stepp appointed or was she elected? When will the voters of Wisconsin have the right or the voice to elect someone who will back, or have the backbone to give equal rights to all? Why is it that we legally licensed fishermen and women who have paid for their fishing licenses can't help their fellow fisherman catch their bag limit when it's alright for the LDF Chips to help with the Mole Lake Chips with theirs, not just SUSPICIONS ON MY part, thats the way it's printed in the paper. Non tribal members can group hunt to get your deer but not the same if your in the same boat and fishing and trying to get your limits. If it's alright for them, then it's alright for all.

Need some help on this one, this isn't about side imaging or who's got all the rights, by the way, I live in the USA, not some sovereign nation hiding behind some old treaty that even our Governor or all the Higher UP's are not willing to discuss.

My first amendment rights were just revealed, would love to hear yours.

One more remark on my part, I'm still guiding this year but on a very limited basis, I will work on more than one body of water to insure your bag limit of walleye, or will spend time locating smallmouth, largemouth, and also big panfish or pike on the TFF. The economy not only effects the sovereign nations, but also the local resort owners who have tried for years to make ends meet and have hard times like anyone else, and they only have 5 video games to help them out along with a local guide or two, not to mention some of the greatest people and food you want to encounter at these beautiful resorts.

God bless the USA, and write the Governor and let him know your thoughts, or better yet, post your reply and let everyone know how you feel, I did.

[Orrsfishing]

Hi Don,
Hope you are doing well. I would have to agree with you. A 2 fish limit is going to keep a certain percentage of fishermen away from our area. With gas prices, jobs and misfortune all beating people down, this is not what we needed to hear.
I also can not agree with you more about the fact that we NEED a real good voice in Madison. Someone who is an outdoorsman and understands the way things really are and not what they read in some idiots report. We need to get someone in there with a brain and a spine.
It bothers me to see how making up for things that happened 200+ years ago or trying to make things "equal" end up screwing the rest of us the hard way.
Bobby

[DPW Guy]

I am not one to try to influence big governmental decisions because what can just one person do, right? But this issue has got my attention like few others. Resort owners, Chamber organisations, land owners and sportsmen statewide should be outraged that it would appear we are being sold out by the DNR secretary. If the limits are indeed being reduced on the TFF (and probably other bodies of water) I will attempt to at least get a message out to those I hope might be listening. Whether you consider yourself a Rep. or a Dem., look up the email addresses of those you think can help. The State of Wis link is:
http://www.wisconsin.gov/state/core/government.html

I am sorry, I know this web site should not be used for any political purpose, but I know this will not be the last posting that will talk about this.

[George G]

Hi Don, I thought the DNR makes their call on posession by hook and line fishermen after spearing is done based upon their harvest. The TFF has to be iced over yet, how can they determine the posession limit if no spearing is done yet. That shakes me up. I am confuesd, and irritated maybe is the more propper description. Oh Man, still comming up though, just to make Porky and Shane happy, and get a giggle out of Dale. All great people, like your self.

[Musky Mauler]

Let’s not mix apples and oranges here. There are two separate considerations at work. One is the fact that a legal agreement is in place. Both parties are obligated to abide by that agreement. It’s not the DNR nor any elected or appointed legislative representatives in government who call this shot. It’s the legal system and the courts. And, thank goodness for that! We have the finest legal system in all the world. The last thing we should want to do is to nullify that system! The courts have ruled that the agreement was entered into in good faith, and that it must be honored. So be it. There’s no sense whining about the agreement or the decision rendered by the court. The honorable thing to do is to abide by it, and leave the sour grapes at home.

As for the two-walleye limit, that’s the responsibility of the DNR. Note that I say, “responsibility.” They are charged with the responsibility of protecting the resource that we all enjoy so much - - namely the fish population in the TFF. If you want to continue to enjoy walleye fishing in the TFF, and if you want future generations to do so as well, then you’d better be glad that the DNR is protecting that resource for you.

There used to be a sardine industry in Monterey, California. You don’t have to read Steinbeck’s books to realize that it is no longer there. They were so greedy that they fished-out the sardines, and the industry collapsed. There used to be a mullet industry in southwest Florida. They, too, got so greedy that they fished the mullet almost nonexistence. That industry, too, has collapsed. And, the former mullet fisherman have had no success at their subsequent attempts at oyster farming, either.

If you want to see the “resort industry” or “vacation industry” collapse in the TFF area, then go ahead and coerce the powers-that-be into raising the walleye limit back up to five a day. Whoopee! Wouldn’t that be GREAT? Then watch how soon there are no more walleyes, no more customers for fishing guides, and no more vacationers flocking to this lovely paradise that we all enjoy so much. It’s time to “man up” and take it in stride. Here’s hoping it’ll be better next year. Too bad Al and Millie Weseman aren’t running the trout farm anymore. That way we could still easily get a limit of five delicious trout per day. In the meantime, let’s hope that the DNR is saving the walleye population for us. This, as I see it, is the other side of the coin.

[George]

I'm not really sure what went on in the negotiations with the Chips on the walleye thing, but it does appear that there is another agenda at work here. If you consider that Cathy Stepp comes from a family owned construction business and has appointed Matt Morney, an attorney and former director of the Metropolitan Builders of Greater Milwaukee as her Deputy Secretary and has gone on record as describing the DNR as anti-development, anti-transportation and pro-garter snake, then I think you can sense what's going on here. In this weakend economy there are places on the TFF that are on the edge of financial collapse making them ripe for the developers to buy them up and build those luxury condos. Now I realize this is a bit much, but not totally out of the realm of possibility. Like one state representative said...Putting Cathy Stepp in charge of the DNR is like putting Lindsay Lohan in charge of a rehab center. I'm just concerned that there is way more on the line here than a 2 walleye bag limit.

[Bartender Jim]

I know it has been discussed here before but once again the DNR presents no alternative to lowering the bag limit. How about establishing a minimum size or a slot limit instead? Seems like they just agree with what the tribe says and that is that.

Our group will still be up there for opener because we would rather be fishing there than anywhere else. The TFF is a special place we look forward to visting every spring. Besides, it's tradition! We'll catch our limit and then work on becoming better perch and crappie fishermen. Nothing wrong with that.

[teenfisher]

well musky mauler, u definetely put more confidence into the dnr than i do. i don't understand why more than 1 tribe needs to spear a lake. last spring, 3 tribes (mole, ldf and some other i don't know) speared over 500 walleyes in butternut lake in price county when its usually only the ldf tribe that spears and its only around 100 or 200 fish. i don't know why the natives are suddenly trying to really hurt the lakes like never before but its not good. if only the wisconsin people had enough organization and will to boycott the casinos....

[GJB]

I cannot agree with Teenfishers comments more. Here are the facts:

-The DNR and the LDF tribe negotiated an agreement to ensure a 3 fish limit on all lakes. The Tribe received some benefits (i.e license sales). The big benefit is obviously the generous gaming pacts all tribes have.
-Tribes across the region cannot agree so if they all declare the same lake there goes the 3 fish limit and the agreement.

If the sportsmen and sportswomen that live in and recreate in Wisconsin generate any income for the casinos of the State, we deserve what we get.

BTC - Boycott the casinos. That should be a rallying cry. I would like to see BTC postings on any landing that have a 2 walleye limit.

[jon malone]

with a limit of 2 most of your guide trips will take less than an hour

[Hot Runr Guy]

I don't think so. While certainly, the purpose of hiring a guide is to bring home dinner, Don will certainly attest that my brothers and I toss back anything small, and concentrate on quality, rather than quantity. Additionally, in our time together, I try to be a "sponge", and absorb different techniques, locations, presentations, baits, etc.

I'm not happy with a 2-fish limit on the Flowage, but I'm not going to cancel my trip because of it.
HRG

[DonH]

Is this 2 walleye limit a done deal? Is it written in stone, or is it an initial plan to be adopted if the tribes take the quantity of walleyes they indicate they will. Things change. The tribes could change their minds and spear less walleyes, and then the limit may change to 3 fish per person.

I'm not exactly holding my breath, but until it's published (kind of like the budget deal in Madison), I'm hoping the indians spear less and the limit increases to 3.

Here's a thought. Why don't we express our Freedom of Speech rights and flood the launches during the spearing to hassel the indians? It sure as hell happened in Madison. Republican Senators even had their lives threatened. Not to do any harm, but to simply send a message.

Again, just a thought.

[bupa]

Do the "native americans" actually eat all those fish? I have heard disturbing storys of large numbers of fish being found dumped in roadside ditches.Whether these storys are true I dont know.If they are it is very disheartening.I also advocate boycotting the casinos and "observing" at the landings during spearing!!!I have always thought this was one America-the same laws and rules for everyone.This foolishness of accomodating certain races is UnAmerican and I for one am fed-up with special interest groups!!!!ONE AMERICA FOR ALL!!!!!

Sorry just had to vent-an angry old white guy!

[mkoeh475]

I'm in agreement with most of you guys on this. Especially George. The development side is certainly a very interesting one. It wouldn't be too hard for those in charge to hurt the area enough to drive down prices and once they get properties purchased to bring back the fishing appeal with a larger bag limit. That sort of shady politics wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Luckily I love the TFF enough that I will continue to go there, but it's a bunch of BS how our resources are mismanaged. There isn't really much that I can add that hasn't been said already.

[cektd1]

To Musky Mauler and all others....People are not going to spend their hard earned dollars to hire a guide to keep 2 fish. Yes I realize you can catch and release all day but the bottom line is if the Chips keep taking their "catch" the population of those catch and releasers diminishes to the point that catching your 2 keeper fish or any others diminishes as well. Guides send their clients to Hotels, gas stations, bait shops, Restaurants, etc. etc. etc.......if the clients don't come everybody loses!

[smallmouth99]

I don't understand how the natives can spear walleye on the lake. Do they do it in a river someplace? If so they are keeping those fish from spawing. Why don't they wait and catch them on a line like the rest of us do. Let the fish spawn, more fish for everybody. After the spawn let them keep a few more than the normal limit. This way in a few years the limit for the average Joe could be back to 5 and everybody is happy.
I will be there for the opening of bass season in late June. Can anyone let me know what I can expect and what is the hot baits for smallies are (may flies, weather, lake levels, type of structure to fish, depths, ....) Can not wait til I get there.

[BlueRanger]

First, it might be nice if everybody took a minute to actually read the article, because the situation has not been accurately characterized on this thread.

http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=12916

The court decisions controlling this process are nearly 24 years old, ample time for people to have familiarized themselves with the reality of the situation. Frankly, with the exception of Musky Mauler, the lack of understanding on display here is disheartening.

The simple fact is that under a 1987 decision by Judge Barbara Crabb for the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in the case of Lac Court Oreilles Band of Chippewa Indians v. Lester P. Voigt, et al., the Chippewa are entitled to 100% of the safe harvest of all fish in the ceded territory. That decision may have been wrong, but only an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court will change it, and at the time the state elected not to pursue that avenue as a result of adverse decisions in similar cases involving other states.

If you want to blame somebody, blame our ancestors for signing treaties that were poorly worded or overly generous. If they had realized the commercial and recreational value that the resource would hold 150 years in the future, they might have done it differently. But blaming the tribes is like blaming a lottery winner for not giving back half of their winnings to the people who bought the losing tickets, and with apologies to my friend George, the suggestion that there's some kind of conspiracy at work here is ludicrous. The Chippewa didn't have to negotiate anything, and the final result is better than what they initially declared.

George G and DonH, the process works the same way every year: the tribes declare the number of fish they intend to harvest, and because of the timing the DNR must set the initial sport harvest bag limits based on that declaration. After the actual tribal harvest numbers are known, bag limits are adjusted accordingly on lakes where the actual harvest is lower than the declaration. In recent years, the LDF have consistently failed to harvest as many fish as they declared, so it is certainly possible that we will see bag limits adjusted upward by late May.

[mkoeh475]

Doesn't change the fact thatfor the most part they're greedy bastids when in comes to spearing. I'd piss on the actual treaty if given the chance

[BlueRanger]

Overturning the urine standard back in 1903 was obviously a bad move :rolleyes:

[john brennan]

Don't anyone kid themselves. The casinos don't matter. It's no better now than 20 years ago..just a nice school building..that's it. The Gov gives the Tribes plenty of money and an air conditioner to just sit around. It works best that way. Keep them reliant on the Gov and they will never amount to anything. Down here in Chicago we have reservations also. We just call it the Ghetto. Same thing. Give them a check, some free cheese, (Walleye) and keep them dependent on the Gov. It continues to promote discrimination. I have heard for so many years about the spearing. I have also heard for years about the excess of fish taken opening weekend. What can be done? It would be great for one year, no spearing and no opener for another month. Give the fish a chance to spawn and then hide. How many fry would make it? I remember hearing about 20 years ago that the locals would line up their boats all night long at the launch. Put the boat in and then take the boat out. Occupy the launch ALL night long so that the Spearing can't take place, simply keep them off of the water. Look what happened in Madison. Block the access and they will go somewhere else. Pretty simple?

[henrym.h.]

Don, I am looking forward to flyfishing as you suggested. Will this limit that you complain about (based only upon your rights) affect my success? Henry

[Randy]

Thanks for posting the article Blue.

The Lac du Flambeau is declaring 21,893 walleys on 255 lakes. The number they are declaring is more this year due to the poor economy.

Let's be generous here and assume each walleye will yield one pound of fillets. Let's also be generous and assume the value of that pound of fillets to be $8. That puts the total take of the LDF spearing harvest at $175,144. That revenue is spread out over 255 lakes. That's $686 per lake. Anyone interested in buying them out?????????

If they're spearing out of spite and not for the money our course of action as sportsmen should also be one of spite and we should completely boycott the casinos.

If the natives completely think it through their increased spearing will already cost them money at the casinos even without a boycott. Less people will visit the northwoods as their favorite lakes have reduced bag limits and curiously their casinos won't be as busy. In essence, they're spearing themselves in the foot. No pun intended.

[George]

I was not inferring that DNR Secy. Stepp had somehow entered into a conspiracy with the Chips. Although rereading what I wrote, I see how you could come out that door. What I meant was; it appears that we have a DNR Secretary with a different set of priorities. To be blunt, she could care less about how many walleyes are harvested on the the TFF or who harvests them. We look at the TFF as a great natural resource that should be protected and preserved for our children and grandchildren. The danger I see with our new secretary is that she and her deputy see places like the TFF as a great natural resource that is underdeveloped. I'm not saying this is going to happen, I'm just saying we need to keep our eyes open.

One last thing. Blue is exactly right on the treaty. It was negotiated long before the TFF was created. Primary interests back then would have involved logging, not recreation. My attorney friends tell me that in contract law any ambguities most always are decided against the party who wrote the contract. In short, we wrote the treaty; all the Chips did was sign it. Any unintentioned ramifications of the wording is on us, not them. Is that lousy? Yes, but it is what it is.

[DonH]

Interesting premise.

Makes one come to the conclusion that the indians have been spearing themselves in the foot for over 20 years. I believe a good part of their motivation to spear is simply because they can and they know it has a negative impact on a lot of people (call it spite).

Thinking it through, I believe the people impacted most negatively might just be the indians themselves. For over a decade my dad brought our family up for a week every summer (stayed at O'Meara's) and then I started bringing my family (including Randy) up for a week (stayed at Idle Shores, the old O'Meara's) and we did that until about 1990. The flowage was really jumping back then. Had to be over a dozen resorts and all the cabins were filled all summer. At night the bars were nuts.

If the indians had left well enough alone, I wonder how many of those people would have spent their evenings at a casino? I bet a lot of them. The people visiting the lakes in that area today is nothing but a fraction of what it used to be, and what it could still have been.

I sure hope they're enjoying their "tribal rights".

[Don Pemble]

Don, I am looking forward to flyfishing as you suggested. Will this limit that you complain about (based only upon your rights) affect my success? Henry

Henry,

I have fly fished the flowage many times, especially during the big mayfly hatch and had great success, not only on smallies and panfish, but on walleyes also. It was during the time when the flowage was drawn down at least 6 to 8 feet, and come spring when the ice went out there were dead fish all over that died due to lack of oxygen. Several friends and I not only fly fished the shallows but did it wearing waders or hip boots and not only caught some very nice fish, but also found many crankbaits and jigs snagged on the once submerged stumps, just had to wear a mask to hide the smell of decaying fish. The water levels at one time to be exact was so low that you had a very difficult time trying to launch a boat. We spent hours if not days wading around the shorelines fishing the deep pockets, catching fish and retreiving baits. And by the way, this 2 bag limit that we are looking at not only affects me and my rights, but all other guides, resort and cabin owners, and the general public who pay not only higher gas prices to get up here, but the same price for a fishing lisence as last year and only able to keep 2 eyes. Help me out on this one. Will it affect your success, that all depends on how many eyes are speared and how much time you put in, once you have your limit of eyes, there's plenty of panfish to fill the void.

Good luck to you, and by the way, I did here today that the water level on the flowage has come up 10 inches, can't confirm it, but let's hope it's true.

[The Jar]

My family has owned a cabin on the TFF for 11 years now and this would be a huge disappointment. It is certainly harder for us to make the weekend trip with gas prices at $3.75 but if me, my father and 2 brothers can only keep 8 walleyes..... That isn't enough for a good fish fry for us and the 3 women back at the cabin. Looks like we'll have to cook more potatoes. REALLY makes ya think why when the TAXES need to be paid. I'll be hiring a guide to better understand Perch and Crappie fishing on the TFF now. My father hired Don Pemble the first year we had the place and everything we learned was absolutely priceless!!

[BlueRanger]

I think I have the answer - you just need to market yourself as the guy who can teach people how to catch bigger walleyes so the 2 fish they keep this year will outweigh the 3 they were keeping last year.

It really is sad that some local businesses may suffer as a result of factors like this that they have no control over. On the other hand, it seems even more sad that anybody would consider passing up a chance to spend time on the TFF over 1 walleye a day.

[waldowillie]

Well with the possibility of a limit of 2 walleye/day and $3.75/gal for gas I will probably only make the 600 mile trip up there for just 2 weeks this year instead of 4 weeks. But there is good news. Read this morning that they just raised the walleye limit on the lake 60 miles from my house from 5/day to 6/day. Will still be up for the friends and beauty of the TFF area.



http://www.dailytribune.com/articles/2011/04/03/sports/doc4d97c318805f0276949340.txt

[George G]

I would have to believe that spearing has not started yet, I am sure the ice is still there. How can the set a limit with out knowing how many were speared. Will they maybe change it to 3 after the results or in, or maybe 1, who knows. Would love to have some one answer this for me.

[BlueRanger]

Read my 3/31 post below. No, it won't go down to 1. The 2 fish limit is based on them spearing the full declared harvest, and that's the number of permits they will issue.

[The Frog caster]

Seems the Blue Ranger has it figured, and we shouldn't worry about the bag limit. The gas prices ultimately will dampen vistors to the north woods. We are Americans, and can overcome any adversity. I do feel sorry for the locals who depend on game fishing for a living ie: resort owners, guides etc. Personaly, I release all game fish and hope someone else snags the same fish at a future date. If it's the bag limit that bothers you, stop by my place this summer in Mercer, and I'll treat ya to a nice fish fry at the "Pines" in downtown Mercer as I'm sure Irv will be glad to have us. Best Regards, Larry (the frog caster) .......... After making a BOLD statement like that I sure hope no one takes me up on my offer !!!!!

[DPW Guy]

Been doing the second week of the season since before the whole craziness started (early eighties). Have heard all the yearly "rumors" over those many years about the Native Americans and all the 'deals' going on. Had to learn all the spring walleye tricks to be successful. Used a guide in the early years to gain knowledge. Later traded info with them to help them (if I could) to do better with their new clients. Weather was a variable. Water level was a variable. Limit allowed was a variable.

Guess what! Some things never change! The things that really matter!

The friendships you make. The stories of the conquests. The beauty of the TFF. Those are the reasons you come back every year no matter what.

You guys that live farther away (even south of the border), come back no matter what the limit is. Hire a guide to show you how to find those fish in early spring. Support the resort owners and restaurants.

You guys that live/work up there are the really lucky ones. Thanks for providing all the insights you do each spring.
The rest of us should not get caught up in the yearly battles. We should be content to share the resource and just enjoy the experience as often as we can. I hope to enjoy it for as many more years as I can and introduce as many new TFF fishermen as I can.

Now---let's instead focus on a little more water; some decent weather with a favorable wind come early May; every resort full of fishermen; a cold adult beverage and, if we are lucky, a few fish in the live well for that occasional fish fry. I can't eat more than two anyway.

[Flambeau Vista Retreat LLC]

My neighbor on Lake Bastine was fishing yesterday and reported 24" of ice. The smaller lakes will open before the TFF. The spearing quotas may be met on other lakes before the TFF opens possibly resulting in a lower spearing harvest from the TFF.

[Bobber Down]

Boycott the casinos? What's taken you guys so long. I take my gambling money to Vegas. I never could figure out the double standard and refuse to support the tribes. As for the limit reduction, I guess it is only one less fish per day. Better chance for me to say: "I caught my limit." For me, fishing is just one of the perks. We always bring plenty to eat when camping but fried walleye sure tastes good!

[smallmouth99]

Can someone tell me what the rules are for wis. If I am there for a week and get my limit of 2 each day, can I have 14 walleye in the cooler to bring home?
Same way with all fish? or can I only have one days catch at any one time?

[Hot Runr Guy]

Can someone tell me what the rules are for wis. If I am there for a week and get my limit of 2 each day, can I have 14 walleye in the cooler to bring home?
Same way with all fish? or can I only have one days catch at any one time?

From here: http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/faq/posses.htm

What is the possession limit? How does it vary from the bag limit?
Answer: The possession limit is the maximum number of a species that you can control, transport, etc., at any time. It is twice the daily bag limit.

The daily bag limit is the maximum number that you can keep in one day (i.e., 12:00 AM to 11:59 PM) of fishing. Fish not immediately released (i.e., prior to transport) are part of an angler's daily bag limit. An angler may not possess in excess of the daily bag limit for the water while on the waters, banks or shores of that water.

For example, if the daily bag limit for a species is 5, the most you could possess or control (i.e., in your freezer, cooler, vehicle, etc.) would be 10, no matter how many days you fished. Therefore, you could only bring home your possession limit of 10.

Once you reach your limit for a species, you must stop fishing for that species. This includes catch and release.

Exceptions:
•In the ceded territory, no person may exceed a total daily bag limit of 5 walleyes and no person may possess more than the possession limit of 10 walleyes. This enables anglers to fish multiple lakes with reduced bag limits. For example, if you fish a lake in the ceded territory with a bag limit of 3 walleye, you may then go on to a lake with a reduced bag limit and catch and harvest 2 more walleye. Thus, you would remain within the daily bag limit of 5 walleye. The possession limit remains 10 walleye.

•Also in the ceded territory, no person may possess fish on any water in excess of the daily bag limit or under the size limit for that water while fishing. Basically, this allows anglers to transport fish across waters with reduced daily bag lmits as long as they do not stop and fish.


Looks to me, if you are going to have more than 4 walleyes/person in the freezer, you better have the name of a nearby lake memorized, that has a 5-bag limit, just in case the possesion police show up!
HRG

[Musky Mauler]

By the way, agreements CAN be modified. Of course, modifying the ceded territory agreement would necessitate a willingness on the part of BOTH parties to the agreement (the affected Indians and the U.S. Government).

On the other hand if an interested party on one side continually refers to the other side as "crooks, spiteful bistads, underserving lowlifes, rotten conspirators" and other distasteful terms, that other side might not EVER be inclined to sit down to negotiate a possible and "reasonable" change to the current, age-old ceded territory agreement. A modification that could possibly even result in a "win-win" change that could be beneficial for both sides.

Going to "war" by boycotting casinos and spewing forth vitriolic accusations is certainly NOT conducive to ever realizing a change to the status quo. I don't think that such mudslinging will cause the affected Indians to beg the Government to negotiate a change to the ceded territory agreement. If anything, it'll probaby stiffen their resolve to absolutely NEVER agree to any such change. As tough as it might be to do so, perhaps we should tone down the rhetoric a bit. It should be apparent that it's only counter-productive. I fully support the right of everyone to express their own opinion in their own way. But it might behoove us to examine the effect that such expressions might have on the situation. Is what we're about to say REALLy beneficial? Of is it just tossing another log onto the fire?

By the way, the fact that TFF wasn't here when the agreement was made is immaterial. After all, it must be remembered that none of the walleyes swimming around today were here back then, either. The agreement did NOT apply only to the waters or the fish that were in existence at that time. The agreement goes on ad infinitim. There is no "time limit" or expiration date.

[mkoeh475]

Do the indians spear the lakes on the Res?

[Mark Benson]

Do the indians spear the lakes on the Res?

Yes, and during times when GLIFWIC is trying to net walleyes from Reservation lakes to hatch the eggs to restock waters that they spear, the tribal police are trying to catch them as violators as well.

Mark

[mkoeh475]

Yes, and during times when GLIFWIC is trying to net walleyes from Reservation lakes to hatch the eggs to restock waters that they spear, the tribal police are trying to catch them as violators as well.

Mark

So are both spearing and netting frowned upon there?


Larry - No need to buy a fish fry, but I'd be more than happy to meet up at the Pines for a drink Irv, Chuck, and the bunch are good people.


Matt

[jsdavey]

I don't know if anyone looked at the updated Ceded territory bag limits for 2011 walleyes, but according to the DNR report, the Turtle-Flambeau Flowage has a walleye bag limit of (3) not (2)?

[Hot Runr Guy]

I don't know if anyone looked at the updated Ceded territory bag limits for 2011 walleyes, but according to the DNR report, the Turtle-Flambeau Flowage has a walleye bag limit of (3) not (2)?

the only DNR listing I could find is for the 2010-2011 year that ended March 6th, 2011
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/fish/regulations/2010/documents/2010postspearbaglimitsforweb.pdf

HRG

[bunczak]

After reading the posts here, I thought some information might be useful- There is a relatively new situation which Don Pemble's original post touches on, but I think should be explained further.

First some background:

The Voight decision from the 1980s is what allows the tribes a variety of rights that most other citizens do not have. These include spearing walleyes, among other things. The Voight decision set up a fairly complicated system which I will try to simplify here.

Each body of water has an "allowed harvest" that is set each year based on population surveys, etc. This "allowed harvest" is then apportioned between spearers and hook and line anglers. Lets say that lake X has an "allowed harvest" of 1,000 walleyes per year. In early spring, the various Chippewa bands declare how many of that 1,000 they think they are going to spear. If they declare a total of 1,000 between them, the opening day hook and line bag limit will be 0 for that lake. If they state they will not spear lake X at all, the hook and line bag limit will be 5.

After the spearing season is done and the actual harvest is known, the bag limits are re-adjusted (generally just before Memorial day weekend). So, if on lake X, the bands declared their intent to spear a total of 800 walleyes, but only took 100, the bag limit will be revised upward. This is why some lakes have a different bag limit in the summer than they do opening weekend. Don's original post talked about the possibility of a two fish bag limit for the TFF for 2011, based on the declared take.

Historically, the LDF band has declared and speared on the lakes near their reservation and the Mole Lake band has declared and speared close to theirs.

Shortly after the Voight decision, the DNR- realizing that the tribes could declare the maximum from every lake in the ceded territory (all of northern WI) and realizing that this would be very bad for businesses in the area, struck a deal with the LDF band. The LDF band does not have Tom M. in it and has generally not been as militant about treaty rights, plus their traditional territory includes many of the most popular and famous lakes in northern WI such as the Minocqua chain, TFF, Big and Little Arbor Vitae, etc, etc. The deal was this- The LDF band could sell fishing licenses, which are good statewide, but not give any of the money to the state. In return, the LDF band agreed to limit their declarations and harvest from lakes in their area such that the hook and line bag limit would be 3 or more. The sales of this license give the LDF about $100,000 per year.

This system has lasted for a number of years, but as casino revenue has grown in importance, the $100,000 has started to look pretty small in comparision to more liberal spearing limits.

Therefore, about three years ago, the leadership of the LDF band wanted to get rid of this arrangement and put it to a vote of their members. Turnout for the vote was very poor and it failed by a very small margin (1 vote if I remember correctly). The very next year, the Mole Lake band began to declare their intent to spear a number of lakes in traditional LDF territory. This is important because the tribes can "share" their spearing quota. To use my earlier example, if the LDF declared their intent to spear 200 walleyes on lake X, the Mole Lake could declare their intent to spear up to 800 walleyes from the same lake, but give those rights to the LDF. The LDF could then repay the Mole Lake by doing the same thing on lakes in Forest County or eastern Vilas. That is exactly what happened last year on a number of important lakes such as Big Arbor Vitae and the Minocqua chain. The LDF band can say that it was not their declarations that caused the reduced bag limits, but it was their spears that made it occur.

What some want the DNR secretary to do is call the LDF's bluff on this and say they are not living up to the spirit of the original deal. Thus far, it appears that she has not. However, from the LDF tribal leadership's point of view, this is a "Heads I win, Tails you lose situation." If the state calls them out and they lose on the issue, the tribal leaders get what they originally wanted, which is a suspension of the 3 fish bag limit for license sales deal. If the state does not call their bluff, they get to have their cake (the $100,000) and eat it (the walleyes) too.

So, no matter how you look at it, it appears that the spearing take from lakes in the Ceded territory is likely to rise in the future. This will result in reduced bag limits for hook and line anglers, especially on opening day.

There is not much that can be done about this. The tribes are not going to give up their rights without being given something very major in return. That something is likely to be a lot of money. The state is not going to give up money for this because they need every dollar they can get to try to balance the budget. There are some (Tom M.), who would probably not want to give up their treaty rights for all the money in the world. They actually have a pretty good financial situation right now, so it is unlikely that even the offer of substantially more money would carry the day on this issue. The political reality is that we fishermen do not have the muscle necessary to win on this issue any time soon (if ever).

I hope this helps clarify the issue.

[Mark Benson]

So are both spearing and netting frowned upon there?


Larry - No need to buy a fish fry, but I'd be more than happy to meet up at the Pines for a drink Irv, Chuck, and the bunch are good people.


Matt

Matt:

The netting is unlike other locations where the netting is done to remove fish for what I assume is a food source. The netting on the LDF lakes is so that the Great Lakes Indian Fish & Wildlife can raise the eggs from the fish and then restock all of the lakes that are speared or in general need stocking.

Mark

[Mark Benson]

the only DNR listing I could find is for the 2010-2011 year that ended March 6th, 2011
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/fish/regulations/2010/documents/2010postspearbaglimitsforweb.pdf

HRG

The confusion here stems from the bag limits set for the season ending 2011, not the upcoming 2011-2012. I want to read bunczak's post before going any further.

Mark

[fishking]

If daily bag limit 2 possesion limit is 2 times the daily bag limit or 4 fish. So you can only keep 4 fish even if you fish 10 days. Unless you eat the fish as you go.

[Hot Runr Guy]

If daily bag limit 2 possesion limit is 2 times the daily bag limit or 4 fish. So you can only keep 4 fish even if you fish 10 days. Unless you eat the fish as you go.

Look at the "exceptions" in bold in one of my postings above. The possesion limit (in your freezer) is 10 fish, since while the TFF may have a 2-fish bag limit, other lakes in the vicinity may have a 5-fish limit. There's no way to identify what lake your filets came from.
While you're on the water, and fishing, the 2-fish limit applies.

HRG

[bunczak]

You also are allowed to fish more than one body of water in a day. Therefore, you can catch 2 from the TFF, and 2 or 3 more from another lake (if legal on that lake), up to your statewide limit of 5 per day. Therefore, the possession limit is double the statewide bag or 10.

[smallmouth99]

I have to solution. Add one or two dollars to the cost of fishing liscense. Split the money between the tribs, let them buy groceries with the money (more food to the dollar than walleye) Let then line fish like the rest of us with a 10 walleye per person per year limit. Then open up all of wis to 5 fish limit.

[beelzebob]

It's not about a 1 fish reduction in the walleye bag. What it is about is a decades long erosion of the previously economical and enjoyable outdoor sports. It's about seeing no bucks in years of northwoods hunting, exorbitant property taxes and permit fee structures taking over the northern counties, decreased limits and seasons on fish, and a regulation for everything you do, may do, or have even thought of doing. The northwoods held appeal for the common man (that's me) - you didn't need much to have a great, uncomplicated time. In the past maybe you could shrug off the high gas prices or other economic hardships to get away, it was worth it. You know what, it's not worth it anymore. It's not worth the frustration, the money, and it's especially not worth the arguing.

[DonH]

I totally understand your pain. I also think back happily on the good old days, but I also have an idea where we're headed. As the population continues to grow, and wild spaces and resources continue to decline, we do need increased regulations on what we have left to protect it. It's been mentioned here that some of the large campsites are reservable for a daily fee. Are we that far away from needing a reservation and paying a daily fee on all the campsites, large or small on the TFF?

Anyone on the TFF on opening weekend (any weekend actually) that notices a boat catching walleyes, heading in, then coming back out to catch more fish, should report that boat to the DNR as possible fishermen breaking the law. You are not tattling on anyone, you are protecting the resource. You are actually being a Steward of the TFF.

I also disagree with you beelzebob on whether it's still worth it or not. It is totally, 100% worth it. In fact it might be more worth it today than ever! For our group, getting away together takes on a greater meaning every year. None of us are getting any younger, and having a few days to share with your sons, dads and close friends is really important. We've discussed this, and all agree that it's not about the fish. Don't get me wrong. When we have success and catch a bunch of fish, we have a blast, but we also have a great time on days we get skunked.

Having said that, sure I'd love to have the walleye limit at 5 per day, but since those days (the good old days) are gone, I'm still hoping it ends up being 3 rather than 2 fish this year.

[St Croix Kid]

is there not a huge walleye hatchery up there ran by the LDF? why don't they just raise and take them out of there?

[jossy10]

it's because "our" people came to their land, raped and killed their people. i don't think a bag limit of 2 walleyes is too much of a concession. sometimes it's easy to get caught up in what seems right and wrong, fair or not fair, but i think it's easy to see this one...

[Hot Runr Guy]

Anyone on the TFF on opening weekend (any weekend actually) that notices a boat catching walleyes, heading in, then coming back out to catch more fish, should report that boat to the DNR as possible fishermen breaking the law. You are not tattling on anyone, you are protecting the resource. You are actually being a Steward of the TFF.



DonH,
I'm all for abiding by the law, and protecting the resource, but how does the DNR prove anyone is going out for a 2nd bag limit? Once those fish are off the water, how can they tell they came from the TFF, and not a 5-limit lake?

With the state having a 10 fish in-possesion limit, they would have to be sitting at the dock, and recording fish being taken off the boat each time it comes in. Sounds impossible to me to police.

HRG

[DonH]

They actually ran a sting operation on the TFF during opening weekend a few years ago. I believe DNR agents sat on islands or in boats and with telescopes and viewed certain boats doing exactly what I mention. They came out, caught a limit, headed in to clean them, and were back out within a short time to catch another limit. After several trips, the DNR followed them to the cabin, counted the fillets, and busted them.

They had watched these boats and were 100% certain that all the fish in the freezer were caught on the TFF. They were most likely over the 10 fish possession limit also.

I'm sure someone can post a more accurate description of what happened and how it went down, but it did happen as it was reported in the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel.

[Mark Benson]

DonH,
I'm all for abiding by the law, and protecting the resource, but how does the DNR prove anyone is going out for a 2nd bag limit? Once those fish are off the water, how can they tell they came from the TFF, and not a 5-limit lake?

With the state having a 10 fish in-possesion limit, they would have to be sitting at the dock, and recording fish being taken off the boat each time it comes in. Sounds impossible to me to police.

HRG


HRG:

Seriously??? Those guys have all the great equipment that our armed services do... and DonH is right, if they think they got something going, there will be more than one of them to collaborate the deal and make sure they get their conviction. Very similar to the gentlemen who were catching crappies for the church fish fry in Milwaukee last spring.

And I for one have the tip number in my cell phone and do not hesitate to use it...

Mark

[bunczak]

If you would like to learn more about the 2 walleye bag limit for the TFF and 9other lakes in the area for 2011, read the current issue of the Wisconsin Outdoor News. On page 3 is Dean Bortz's column which deals with this and on page 3 and 4 is DNR secretary Cathy Stepp's letter which addresses it too. There is way too much in those columns for me to write here, but she apparently did attempt to call the LDF and Mole Lake's bluff on this issue like I mentioned in my earlier post, but just like I mentioned earlier, she had no leverage since many in tribal leadership want to have the higher spearing limits.

Bortz's column brings up something that I was not aware of- The Mole Lake band has a large bond payment due soon. He mentions $40-$50 million dollars. He does not say this, but I believe that is the bond they issued when purchasing the former Crandon mine property from the Connor family. So, it appears that the Mole Lake band has a strong financial motivation to flex their spearing muscles on this issue. You can see this by the fact that the 10 lakes they chose to bring down to a 2 walleye limit for 2011 are the largest and most well known walleye lakes in the area- The TFF, Bearskin, Minocqua, Squirrel, Willow flowage, Big St. Germain, Plum, Squaw, Trout and Tomahawk. Some of these are not the state's greatest walleye habitat, but they are chosen for maximum political impact.

Get ready for more political/financial excitement on this issue.

[Orrsfishing]

Hey,
You have a daily bag (2) a state bag (5) and then a posession limit. The posession limit is twice your daily bag. So for the Flowage you can have (4) walleye in your posession total. If you fish multiple waters you can get up to that (5) a day and posess (10) total. You also need to have them in seperate bags and clearly marked. It is a big confusing pain in the butt... but there ya go.

[Hot Runr Guy]

They actually ran a sting operation on the TFF during opening weekend a few years ago. I believe DNR agents sat on islands or in boats and with telescopes and viewed certain boats doing exactly what I mention. They came out, caught a limit, headed in to clean them, and were back out within a short time to catch another limit. After several trips, the DNR followed them to the cabin, counted the fillets, and busted them.

They had watched these boats and were 100% certain that all the fish in the freezer were caught on the TFF. They were most likely over the 10 fish possession limit also.

I'm sure someone can post a more accurate description of what happened and how it went down, but it did happen as it was reported in the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel.

Cool! But, I guess I'm going to have to look around a bit more before I pee over the side,,,,,,,,,,

Thanks for the info. Good to know they're looking out for our favorite place on earth.
HRG

[The Frog caster]

Hey guys, I think Don H. summed it up best ...... It's really all about the fishing, not the bag limit. It's the privilage we have of the use of our natural recources. As Don states, our world is not the same. Population pressures on our land have encroached on the pristine land that is left in our state. What does that equate to ? ......... you already know. Let's put it this way, more people more idiots. If ALL the fisherman abidded by the rules we wouldn't need so many "DNR" enforcement people, right ? ......... 98% of all the fisherman I've met are "stand-up" guys (and gals), but the remaining 2% can be idiots. Garbage tossed into the water, beer bottles, oil cans etc. is part of the reason the DNR has a clamp on us. More people= more laws....agree ? It's easy to blame the Gov't for everything that's wrong. Or to say the white man took the Indian's land ages ago, therefore we owe them... I'm of German decent and I don't blame the Roman Empire for conquering Germania back in the 5th century !!!! So let's do like Don H. suggests, remember the old days and play the cards we are dealt today! Best regards, Larry F.

[jossy10]

...........


Hey guys, I think Don H. summed it up best ...... It's really all about the fishing, not the bag limit. It's the privilage we have of the use of our natural recources. As Don states, our world is not the same. Population pressures on our land have encroached on the pristine land that is left in our state. What does that equate to ? ......... you already know. Let's put it this way, more people more idiots. If ALL the fisherman abidded by the rules we wouldn't need so many "DNR" enforcement people, right ? ......... 98% of all the fisherman I've met are "stand-up" guys (and gals), but the remaining 2% can be idiots. Garbage tossed into the water, beer bottles, oil cans etc. is part of the reason the DNR has a clamp on us. More people= more laws....agree ? It's easy to blame the Gov't for everything that's wrong. Or to say the white man took the Indian's land ages ago, therefore we owe them... I'm of German decent and I don't blame the Roman Empire for conquering Germania back in the 5th century !!!! So let's do like Don H. suggests, remember the old days and play the cards we are dealt today! Best regards, Larry F.

[ski2313]

Apparently cabin fever is starting to set in for the TFF goers. This thread was a highly entertaining read, especially the parts regarding conspiracy theories! Plenty of posts ripe with hypocrisy as well.. And as always, Blue inserts himself as the voice of reason, facts, logic, and objectivity.

2 fish... 3 fish... I could care less. I'll be here on the TFF no matter what.

Some men fish their whole lives without realizing that it's not the fish they are after.. -Henry David Thoreau

[bupa]

I think the guides/resorts should focus more on multi species fishing.The walleye is a great eater but a boring fighter.Why not focus on the fighting smallies or numerous pike?I live in southeastern wisconsin and find the promotion of the TFF to be lacking!If you want to bring back tourism(money)you have to do a better job of promoting the re sources you have its NOT just walleyes.What about the beauty and serenity of the area?The wonderful camping?The nice people and great resorts.From what i see some places need to make their prices more reasonable.This isn't a boom time for vacationers.The sooner people realize they may have to make changes to draw tourists the better for your economy!600 or 700 dollars for a week is not going to draw people.I have looked at some places availability charts and they look pretty sad!As much as some people are resistant to change you must adapt or you could fail.Just some thoughts from an "outsider " who loves the TFF.
Good luck and God bless all, Bob S.

[Mark Benson]

bupa:

It is a double edged sword and, without considering any one's rates, I would consider $600-$700 rates for a week to very reasonable!!! More marketing may be necessary, but you can't operate and not cover expenses. Those rates sound like the same for the last ten years???

Mark

[St Croix Kid]

i spend a couple of weeks a year over by Hayward. 600 bucks a week for a cabin is a steal compared to over there. i, for one, am glad it's not like Hayward by the TFF. not a ton of other things to do but fish but I like it.

[Orrsfishing]

Wow Bupa... I am trying to figure out what one of your many wrong remarks to start with.
From the top:
1) The guides/resorts need to focus on multi species... As guides and resorts, we focus on what customers want. Not what we tell them they should want. Many people love to fish for bass, some for panfish and some for muskies. Most people who come here and want a meal, want a limit of walleye. I am sure Don can back that up. We are as multi species as we can get!! If fishermen are allowed fewer and fewer walleye, then they will find other places to go to catch them where they are allowed more. Maybe not all, but a percentage. In this economy, we can not afford to let another percentage get away, for any reason.
2) You find the promotion of the TFF to be lacking... I call bull on this one too. We have ads in multiple magazines, emails are sent out by the hundreds by the chamber. We attended at least 5 different sport shows earlier this year. Go to one. You will see us there. We DO NOT promote one business or one kind of fish. We promote everything we have!!! What do most people want to know about... Walleye, Bass and panfish.. A bigger percentage for muskies all of the time. We promote the hell out of the camping, the restaurants, the lodging, the nice people and the true beauty of the area.
3) The one that truely pisses me off. From what you see, some of us need to make our prices more reasonable... WHAT??? In our area, we have lodging available from 450ish a week to a couple thousand a week. We cover the entire spectrum. Again, at the shows we promote ALL of them. Who in the hell do you think you are to try to tell someone up here to drop their prices?!? The people who have lodging here already have to worry about people cancelling because of job loss, gas prices, poor economy in general and now a 2 walleye limit. We have mortgages to pay, an ever rising gas and electric bill, taxes, advertising and always more upkeep. You want us to lower prices? GET A CLUE!!! We are as inexpensive as we can get!! How much would you like us to drop the rates BOB?? Make everything 300 a week and see how long we last?!? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
We have adapted a hundred times and will never be able to adapt enough to satisfy the people who are never happy and who think they can always do it better and want it cheaper.
Next time you decide to make a comment, how about if you have a clue as to what you are talking about or just keep your mouth shut.

[mkoeh475]

You said it perfect. I'd like to see him run a resort run for $300/week

[Don Pemble]

Hey ORR,

Why did you go so easy on Bupa, let him know how you really feel. Good job anyway.

[bupa]

Wow! Sorry i opened a can of whoop ass.I didnt mean any harm just suggestions.I love the tff as much as anyone!!!I dont think i deserved the NASTY replys i got.Did i hit a nerve or what? I humbly ask your forgiveness!I wonder if i was right on some of comments judgiing from some of the vitriollic responses i got. Once again i am sorry.
God bless all,Bob S.
P.S. Mark and Kid thanks for your nicer replys.

[bupa]

One more thing-down south where i live if i mention the turtle flambeau area most people say _Wheres that????? Never heard of it.

[The Frog caster]

Hey Bob, The guys were pretty rough on you !! If you mess with a person's livelihood you can expect that. In 1958 we paid $90.00 per week at Art Kreugers resort in Mercer for a family of six. Since 1958 my wages have gone up x10 ......... so in that light, the charge today would be $900.00... correct ?? .......... so a cabin now@ $700.00 per week would be very much in line with todays value on anything ........ agree ? .......... Anyhow, If I had a nickel for every time I stuck my foot in my mouth I'de be "hob-nobbin" with the Rockefellers ! ......... You have your opinions and the right to express them. Best Regards, the "old" frog caster.

[bupa]

Frog-Thanks for your kind words ,an adult response is always welcome.I love the TFF as much as many do. I was only offering what i thought were helpful suggestions NOT criticism.The NASTY response by one so called guide was uncalled for!I wonder if he treats his clients this way-i know i for one will certainly not reccomend him to ANYONE!!!!Dont want to engage in a pissing match but do expect to be treated with some respect.

God Bless All, Bob S.

[Musky Mauler]

This thread doesn’t quite seem about to die. So, I’ll toss in one tidbit more of possible controversy. What the heck, I’ve always felt that controversy is more beneficial than apathy.

During the German occupation of Holland during WW-II, it wasn’t uncommon for the Gestapo to break into your home and search for hidden Jews. But, we don’t hafta put up with that kinda stuff anymore, right? I mean, we live in the good ‘ol U.S. of A. where we’re given Constitutional protections against illegal search and seizure.

So, how is it that some of us seem to be so willing to subscribe to the idea that the DNR (not the Gestapo) can bust into someone’s home in Park Falls and search their freezer for “illegal contraband,” meaning, of course, more than the “possession limit” of walleyes?

Know what? It just ain’t gonna happen!

And, even if it did, how would the DNR know that those frozen walleye fillets aren’t the ones that I bought at the local supermarket in town? Just in case you haven’t looked in recent years, it’s not uncommon at all for the stores to sell frozen Canadian walleyes. At a not-so-long-ago family birthday gathering I purchased some two dozen of these frozen delights from the store’s feezer (how are they able to exceed the “possession limit” themselves?) and stored them in my own freezer. At that time, I had not yet purchased my annual fishing license. So, was I in some kind of “violation” of walleye fishing laws or possession limit laws? Can the DNR presume to limit which kind of foodstuffs I can buy, and in what quantities?

Note that I said a home in Park Falls, and not a cabin on the shores of TFF. Why not make it a home in Milwaukee? I mean, the DNR’s “authority” reaches that far - - right? Let’s get real and figure that this “possession limit” stuff is, by legal necessity, more or less reliant upon “the honor system.” No game warden (or ex Gestapo Agent) is gonna break-in and conduct a search of your abode - - be it a home, cabin, camping trailer or tent.

Comments, anyone?

[Orrsfishing]

Hey Mauler...
A few years ago, without naming names or exact locations, there was a huge sting operation on the Flowage, I believe opening weekend. They did come right into both private home and rented cabin to search for the fish that they already knew were there... someplace. They had agents in the woods, agents in boats around the fishermen and basicly just agents all over the place. They have the authority to search anything they wish if they have a solid reason. I love the question ya raised about the store bought fish and have no idea what to tell you there... Made me laugh tho!! :) Someone who knows about this will hopefully comment.... I am even pretty sure they have the authority to show up at your home and search that as well, after they bust ya at your rental cabin.
When this all went down a few years ago, it caused a huge stink.. HUGE!! Some major fines were handed out and people were left with a very bitter taste. I hope someone else reading this will be able to recall more and offer more and better insite. There may have even been an article in the Milwaukee paper??

[Mark Benson]

Musky Mauler:

If they think you got some of that contraband and pretty solid lead(s), they will exercise their right to search... As for the store purchased fish, if you removed them from the store bought packaging, that could be an issue...

And the Gestapo/searching for Jewish people and the DNR/searching for walleyes are pretty poor analogies... Last spring there was a large sting on the Chip relating to panfish being over bagged and they may have searched their homes in Milwaukee once it was determined that the overbagging was definitely going on...

Mark

[Hot Runr Guy]

If you don't break the law, you have nothing to worry about. Kinda like why do people hit the brakes, when they are not speeding, just because they see a cop?

HRG

[DonH]

I'm pretty certain of a couple of things regarding the Sting Operation referred to in this string.

First - That the wardens did indeed go onto the cabins to check the amount of fish that were on hand. Remember, since it was opening day, the possession limit wasn't a factor. They could only be fishing for that single day, so they were only allowed 3 fish per man.

Second - That this story was featured in the Milwaukee Journal/Sentinel. It was big news and I believe the fines handed out were substantial.

On a side note - Orrsfishing mentions this causing a HUGE stink and the fines leaving a bitter taste. Who had the bitter taste? Not the low lifes breaking the law I hope. The fines should have included loss of fishing privlileges for life as far as I'm concerned. Their intent was to break the law, and catch as many fish as possible. This intent is why the fines were substantial.

On another side note - I was watching a show on the Discovery channel recently. There is a Eskimo village in the artic that is allowed to hunt for a protected species of whale. They are only allowed to fill a specific yearly quota and the Federal government has given them this right (maybe due to a treaty, but I don't know that). Here's the rub. They are forced to hunt as their forefathers did using man made wood canoes and man made wood spears. Makes me wonder why the indians, though exercising 1860 treaty rights to spear walleyes, are allowed to use 21st century technology.

[bunczak]

DonH- That argument about equipment has been made many times. The Chippewa are allowed to use modern equipment because Judge Barbara Crabb said so in her decision. I different judge may have seen it differently (I wish she had).

[Orrsfishing]

HRG, DonH, Bunczak,
Right on and well said!

[Musky Mauler]

Naturally, I'm not familiar with the legal issues involved in the "sting" operation that was mentioned. However, I have a strong suspicion that in the cases at hand, a search warranst were in effect. Especially since it was mentioned that the authorities "knew what was there."

That would be in accordance with the niceties of the law of the land.

But, if you have any friends or acquaintances who are attorneys, go ahead an ask them if a game warden can break into your home and search for possilbe incriminating evidence merely on the authority of his badge. I'm sure the answer you'll receive is "No way!"

The fact that the cases mentioned went to trial and resulted in fines also indicates that it was NOT a warrantless search that occurred. Otherwise, the evidence obtained would have been considered as "fruit of the poison tree," and would not have been admitted.

To obtain a search warrant, assurances have to be made and sworn to a judge that there is sufficient reason to believe that evidence of illegal activity can be obtained as the result of a search. If a "sting" operation took place, it's likely that such a search warrant was obtained on the basis of activity that was observed to have taken place prior to the issuance of the warrant and the subsequent search.

Merely having a fellow fisherman state that "they have the authority to break into your home" does not constitute legal aurhority for such a thing to take place. Such illegal entry would, no doubt, cause the framers of the U.S. Constitution roll over in their graves.

One more thing. In law, the burden of proof rests with the accuser. If I remove the wrapper from my store-bought walleyes, it's not up to me to prove that they ARE store bought - - it's up to the accuser to prove that they AREN'T! The presumption of guilt does NOT rest with the accuser. It never has, and it never will. In our great nation the presumption of INNOCENCE always rests wtih the accused. I don't have to prove that I bought them at the store. The other guy has to prove that I DIDN'T.

I'm sometimes amazed at how our rights can be so miscontrued so often by so many of us. By the way, I'm not advocating that anybody should violate possession laws. I'm only pointing out that this particular law depends greatly upon the honesty and knowledge of fishermen. Great fisherman such as those who I've been thankful of knowing and associating with on TFF and its surrounds for a good number of decades, now. It's certainly been MY pleasure!

[DonH]

Actually a search warrant isn't needed if consent for a search is given, which is usually the case. They have you "dead to rights". They know what you've done and they even know what's in the freezer. If you deny the request, are they going to say "nuts" and leave? No. In that case they will get the warrant you mention and then you're really in trouble. In most cases, the perpetrator realizes he screwed up, has been caught and gives consent to the search.

In my previous post, I never mentioned breaking into a cabin or house. I merely said that the wardens did go into the cabins. Whether they had a warrant, needed a warrant, or didn't need a warrant, I have no idea.

This sting took place because for years certain fishermen were witnessed taking advantage of the resource. They would go fishing and were seen catching their limits. They they headed in, only to return within a short time to again catch their limit. Then they headed in only to return a short time later and they repeated this all day long. I'm sure some fishermen took notice, reported this to the authorities and bingo. The Sting! Good name for a movie

[Mark Benson]

One more thing. In law, the burden of proof rests with the accuser. If I remove the wrapper from my store-bought walleyes, it's not up to me to prove that they ARE store bought - - it's up to the accuser to prove that they AREN'T! The presumption of guilt does NOT rest with the accuser. It never has, and it never will. In our great nation the presumption of INNOCENCE always rests wtih the accused. I don't have to prove that I bought them at the store. The other guy has to prove that I DIDN'T.

By the way, I'm not advocating that anybody should violate possession laws... Great fisherman such as those who I've been thankful of knowing and associating with on TFF and its surrounds for a good number of decades, now. It's certainly been MY pleasure!

To the first item regarding the burden of proof you are absolutely correct!!! Was told that by a buddy who is warden... We know you are not advocating and you are right, there are great people in the Mercer area, be they local or from out of town!!!

Mark

[Musky Mauler]

"In my previous post, I never mentioned breaking into a cabin or house."

Don, just to clarify - - I believe that when a person enters an abode illegally(be it house, cabin, trailer or tent), they will subsequently be charged with "breaking and entering."

That is what prompted my use of the phrase "break into." It doesn't necessarily mean that they break down a door to gain access. It means they have entered the premises illegally.