What happened to river courtesy?

[river rat24]

I've been living with the allegheny river in my back yard for only about 15 years now, and I've been noticing a disturbing trend. Whether it be while fishing from a boat, wading with my fly rod, hiking around the river, or just around the house next to the water, I've noticed an obvious decline in what I'd consider common courtesy on the water. Slowing down in a boat while going past other boaters or wading fishermen, giving people enough space while they fish, or even just waving. Some examples; while fishing from the bank near the tail waters recently I had a jet boat drive well within casting distance of myself and 4 others I was with at the time. Those who know the tail waters here at the dam know that there is plenty of room in the middle, especially with no boat traffic as there was that day. The boater then proceeded to drive between several fly fishermen and the holes they were casting to. I also witness quite often, boaters who do not slow down for any other boats. Fishing is about slowing down and enjoying the activity we all love, not flying by canoes and kayaks. The reason this is on my mind actually, is because I witnessed today, for the second time, an alumacraft jet boat on the river, raising his jet, and soaking several canoes and kayaks. The disgruntled remarks of the people could be heard all the way from shore, so I'd assume it was not a welcome event. This ignorance may simply seem more obvious to me because I live on the river and there is currently more river traffic than ever before, but it seems to be more and more common. So all those who love and live around the river as I do, let's show these idiots how things should be done. Set a good example and perhaps eventually, they'll get the hint

[Stinky Finger]

I hear you river rat. I've been swamped a few times too. Too many times. Attitude. That's what it is. Not limited to the water, either. Same jackwagons are to be found on the road. Seems to be an alarming trend, no common decency out there any more. Seems an awful lot of people operate under the "me first, I am way more important than you, get out of my way" ideology. No rules. No speed limits. I am way too cool for this planet.

They give me the impression that they feel because their boat is bigger, more expensive than yours, that it is O.K. to rip by at speed within yards of where you are anchored while fishing. Or that because they are in a boat and you are fishing from the bank or wading that passing through the area right where you are, no matter if there is 1,000 acres of open water, that's fine.

When I was going to school in Utica N.Y. after the service back in '93-'94 I fished the Mohawk river/Erie canal and Onieda lake a lot with the 14 ft aluminum boat and 10 horse I had then. the entirety of the Erie canal from Albany to Buffalo is a 5 mph no wake zone. Unless you have a sparkling fiberglass bass boat with a 225 hp outboard on it or a 30 ft Chris Craft cabin cruiser. Then you're golden and you can crap all over everybody. Well I had enough of that baloney and I fought back once. I am not ashamed to admit it here publicly either and yes, I really did this-

When I was going to school at Riverside Aeronautics at Utica my wife and I would spend weekends at Onieda lake, her parents would come out from Buffalo and we spent the weekends in a cottage on Fish creek, just off the canal and the lake. I was out by myself one day, about three miles east of the lake on the canal, in the middle of nowhere. No roads, no boat launches, no nothing out there but the canal, straight as an arrow for miles and miles. I'm anchored in my little 14 footer about ten feet off the south bank, jigging the drop off. I saw it coming for a good ten minutes. 30 foot Chris Craft woodie throwing white water bank to bank. She was running a good 15 mph at least which is fast on skinny confined water like that. When you can "see the whites of their eyes" and they are looking right at you there can be no mistake. They most definitely saw me. I was driven up on the rocks of the rip rap, slammed up and down on it and then actually beached by the second and third waves. Broke a rod on the tree branches, lost my tackle box and cooler overboard and they never wavered from their straight course right down the middle within 30 ft of me. Once I got through cursing and gathered what hadn't sunk I discovered I had a hole in the boat from the rocks. I got a real good look at the boat and took note of it's features and hull number. I was not happy. I had been swamped before this in small boats but I could see the operator both times, once by motor island on the Niagara river and once on Chautauqua, rounding long point had not seen me, so no foul. This jerk had not only seen me, I got sneers. Game on.

I had to spend a good 15 minutes getting the boat drained (in the woods, eaten alive by mosquitoes) and using a rock to flatten out the dent/crease and put a bolt in the hole from my fish finder bracket. Deemed her seaworthy and gave chase. By now the cruise ship full of pretty people was nearing the lake, Sylvan Beach, Fish Creek area, a big lead. I twisted the throttle and kept an eye on her. I saw where she turned in. A marina just before the lake on the right, the Fish Creek side. By the time I got there and found her in her slip the jet set of Paris Hilton bikinis and Brad Pitts that had been aboard were gone. I took note as I putted through a U-turn and headed back to the cottage. When it got dark I went back, this time in the canoe. I had a huge pair of channel locks, hacksaw and a three pound ball pein. I knew exactly what I intended to do and I did it.
I put the canoe on the grass across the way and swam to it with the channel locks. I intended to bend one blade of the prop, just a little. I wanted that engine to run for awhile and tear up the bearings before the skipper noticed the grinding. He noticed me and made the decision to plow me under with disdain. This was payback time. It took me three or four attempts in the pitch black to swim down, find the prop and reef on it for all I was worth but I didn't feel I was getting anywhere trying to bend it. I skipped the hammer and went to the hacksaw. Bronze is soft stuff. I was amazed at how fast I got through that. It took a few times to come up for air and go back down but still, go try cutting bronze with a hacksaw. It goes through like a steak knife through cardboard. I wanted to disrupt the balance of the blade, a three blade prop. Came right off. It must have been cracked from trying to bend it. Got about 1/3 of the way through and it dropped. I banged the shaft and cut my knuckles it was so sudden.

I am not trying to boast. Honestly, I'm not. I really felt like a turd for having done that for years afterwords. I was so mad then and just focused on evening the table but I can't stay mad. It did stick with me and bother my conscience for a long long time. But I got over it because I could not balance out that one simple thing. Common decency, simple courtesy. They knew full well they laid havoc down upon me but who was I ? Just a nobody little peasant in a little boat who was in their way.

So in the end score one for the little guy. I hope that two bladed out of balance prop tore up their engine from front to back. Comes around goes around.

[ppalko]

I could go on with numerous stories.....

My dad and buddy were just fly fishing (last Saturday) one of the back island riffles near the dam when the kayak/canoes started pouring down the river. Not usually a problem and they have as much right to the water as anyone....heck I fish from a canoe.....when a group of kayakers pulled into shore 10 feet from them and started swimming down the middle of the riffle they were fishing. Needless to say, my dad and buddy packed up and left...

I saw the same "spraying of the kayaks" mentioned above by a jet two weeks ago. I honestly could not tell if it was a friendly exchange or not. I did notice two jet boats buzzing up and down the river (not fishing) acting sort of like (gasp) jet-skis.

In all my years of running the river I've only had one incident that sticks out as an intentional act of "I drive a big jet boat and you don't".... A jet rig came within 20 feet of me fly fishing one of the narrower riffles about 15 yeas ago. I got sprayed by the jet. There was another obvious run to take the boat and this boat ignored that and made me a target. I did not have the chance to play James Bond and hunt down the boat....but I was slightly perturbed.

On the good side of things, most people on the river are great folk. Last year a guy in a jet pulled over to me and my kids fishing a riffle and asked if it was OK if he ran up through. Heck, I caught my biggest trout of the year just after he ran by us.

Many of the canoe-kayaks have no idea what they are doing and I think most annoying things they do are unintentional. I try to avoid weekends on the river for that very reason at this time of year.

Phil

[Red Childress]

Funny you should mention that you caught your biggest trout right after a boat ran over them......we have been running over those "boat spooky" fish for years and drifting back through them and catching them. If the fish are "on" then they are "on" and continue feeding after our vessels pass over them.

I deal with this scenario on a daily basis: Several guys standing in the middle of the river fishing in opposite directions. The only way to get up or downstream is to jump on plane without getting stuck, causing damage to hull or sucking rocks through my intake. The response by other fishermen range from a simple nod, a stare, a wave, being called an ---hole or the dreaded "middle finger salute". It is very hard to please everyone.

For me, it is much better if the jet boaters just fly by (provided there is a reasonable distance between us) instead of slowing down to half-plane for 2 reasons: Half-plane equates to a higher wake and I would just prefer to get them past me so the agony is not prolonged. When I see the considerate jet-heads slowing down for me, I usually just wave them past so my boat does not get rocked from a higher wave and so they can get to their own fishing spots faster.

I have noticed an incredible increase in canoe/kayak pressure on this seciton of river over the past few years. Josh and Piper Lindell (owners of the 2 main liveries on this section of river) are doing some great things regarding their business and increasing the tourism here in Warren County. We need the out-of-towners spending their money here but there are a few headaches associated with this. All we can do is do our best in respecting the space of others. Most understand this but some just have no idea they are even doing anything wrong. I bite my tongue on a daily basis and I am sure other guys bite their tongue when I travel through "their" trout spots.

I have the next 4 days off to take care of things around my house, run a few errands, clean the boat, get some rest and prepare for the weekend. One of those 4 days will involve a lesson in conservation for my 2 daughters while we attempt to clean a 9-mile seciton of camp sites cuz the lovely 4th of July vacationers did not have enough room in their canoes for their empty beer cans......they had plenty of room when the cans were full so evidently the cans expand in size after the contents are consumed.

That is a whole other scenario for another thread.:)

[SportJet120]

Last year when fishing the River above Tidioute we decided to head back down. The GF was operating the boat as we jetted toward two fisherman wading in the river. GF tried to give them as much room as possible and beached our 18' jet boat. It sucked in a rock and did damage internally not to mention that not one of those fisherman offered to help get to boat afloat again. The commotion we made trying to get the boat unstuck was much more than if we would of jetted right down the middle. Canoes and yaks seem to think that since they are smaller they should have the right of way. Most who don't understand and never operated a jet. Inboard jets are the best way to go but ingesting a rock can ruin ones day and empty there piggy bank in a hurry.You cant trim them up. So next time you give that jet boat a one finger wave think about why they are going fast through the skinny. Red, many thanks to you and all that keep that river clean.

[InTheDrift]

This is a hot issue for me. I don't post here often, but some issues over the weekend make this one sting a bit more. I run a drift boat on the Yough and occasionally the Allegheny and deal with all kinds of watercraft pretty regularly.

As was mentioned before, being on the river is not unlike being on the road. You get all types of people out there.

Canoes and kayaks are generally pretty nice. Occasionally, we'll get a couple of people that feel the need to run right through the line that we are fishing. We fly fish, mostly to the banks and for some reason, that 50' between our boat and the bank is much more appealing to paddle through than the 300' of river behind us that is wide open. Usually, these people have no idea that they are doing something wrong and a courteous suggestion that they pass behind us is accepted. We have gotten the "it's not your river" sort of response, but it's a rarity and gets dealt with in a very different way.

Any boat with a motor can create some tough situations depending on who is using it. I spent a week in Michigan last fall and was waked by 2 boats out of the 40-50 that I saw all week. Boats passing by would come off plane, idle by, even make conversation about the fishing. It was pleasantly suprising to me, because 9 out of 10 times in PA, I get waked without even a wave or head nod. I understand what the needs of a jet boat are when it comes to shallow water, but if you run a jet, you probably know the river and know where it is safe to come off plane and give others on the river a break. If it's skinny, I understand, but most of the time I have been waked has been in pools where the guy could have easily dropped it down.

We also have several airboats down here that like to show off on the weekends. One new guy has popped up this year that is really asking for trouble. Running 3' from the banks in the shallows, waking small boats and using the pools as a race course. No joke, the guy came by our boat this weekend within easy casting range, wide open and pushing a monster wake. The fact that we all were staring at him, signaling him to step it down and he actually looked the other way kind of makes me think that he knew he was in the wrong, but just didn't care. The Fish Commission knows all about this guy and hopefully he gets a talking to before somebody gets hurt.

It's a hot issue, but it will likely never disappear. I try to not let it ruin my day, but sometimes I really wish I kept a roman candle on the boat to use as a warning shot...

[SportJet120]

If I can slow down I usually will just for common courtesy. One thing I have noticed is the wake from the boat slowing is usually larger than at full power on plane. Slowing lets me enjoy that babe canoing in a bikini a little longer also.

[river rat24]

I absolutely understand the need to stay on plane in skinny water, being the operator of an 18' jet boat myself. Along with some other jet boat specific needs. It seems to me though, that the bulk of my issues dealing with operator ignorance(be it in a canoe, kayak, jet/prop boat, etc...) are in open water as of late. The wide open tail waters with no other boating traffic, and several instances in open eddies where the actions were uncalled for at best. I just wish all watercraft operators on the river would think significantly more before acting. Everyone thinks they own the water(if they owned it I would bet they'd be much more hesitant to leave their D@#N beer cans lying everywhere!!):mad: , always want "their spot", or to get somewhere first. Myself and others who live on the river, have had multiple instances where we have been anchored and fishing in the eddy in which we live, and we have been asked to move or given some sort of similar grief, because someone wants to fish a drift through that spot. Just hope that the good bunch of us river bums are all I encounter for a while. Makes the experience much better. And I'm with you Red, people really forget how to pick up beer cans and bottles after they empty em. It's nonsense, but I pull garbage bags full of trash off of the river banks and out of the camp sites every year. We just have to do what we can to help, what else can ya do?

[muskyjerk]

Last November, fighting a musky in my kayak, fish causing a ruckus on the surface a boat flies up river sending a wake @ me and the soon to be boated fish. The fish had the front treble in the corner of it's mouth and the rear treble was loose. The 1 foot wake arrived as I got the fish to the side of the kayak so I waited for the wake to pass. As I went to get the fish the rear treble was now 3 points under the center where the two gills join. Cut hooks and spent 45 minuted trying to revive but the fish still died.
Kayak or not, I see anyone with a good fish on I'll take a second to watch, help, and congratulate them if I can. Not hurt their effort.

[Red Childress]

3 stories over the past week...........

I was fishing one of my milk run spots last week (for the 3rd time during that 9-hour session cuz we had raised a mid-40 inch fish on a jackpot about 1.5 hours earlier) and as I was slowly, quietly drifting into the area to begin our musky drift along the shorleline when (as predicted) a guy who lives directly across from this area fires-up his boat and flies across the river and pulls right in front of us, hammering us with his boat wake and without making eye contact. I had already told my clients to be prepared for this to happen cuz it was not the first time he had pulled this inconsiderate stunt. The first time it happened, I bit my tongue cuz I was not sure how my clients would handle the confrontation but these guys were ticked off and actually told me that if I did not say anything, they were going to speak up. So after counting to 10, rubbing my finger and thumb together in deep meditation trying to cool off before saying anything, I attempted to have a rational conversation with this guy telling him that this was not the first time he had intentionally cut off my boat. He further said (this is the good part), "I was just fishing here a few minutes ago but I had to take my wife and kid back to shore and drop them off." I assume this meant that since he had just been there a few minutes ago, his "spot" was saved forever and he had the right to go right back where he was previously. He proceeded to tell me that I did not own the river and proceeded to get his rods in order to begin fishing. It was apparent to me that he was the guy who thought he owned the river notably the section directly behind his house since he never leaves that 150-yard stretch we were preparing to fish. Interesting mentality. We decided to pack-up and head to a different location cuz an assault and battery charge on my record would not look good especially being a school teacher. :)

Yesterday, I was fishing another seciton of river with different clients working an area where we spotted a very big fish 2 hours prior only to have a V-hull JetCraft fly past us within 25 feet of our boat and 20 feet from the kayakers who were on the other side..........rocking all our vessels with his wake. We were in 7 feet of water, not skinny water so he had easy option to come off plane and idle by us but especially the canoes/kayaks. They were waving at everyone and just out for a joyride and appeared to be oblivious to courtesy while on the water. I am certain that this guy was an out-of-towner cuz I had never seen this boat up here before.

3rd scenario......right after the V-hull JetCraft buzzed our tower, we continued fishing only to have a small prop-boat drive right between us and the 60 feet of space between us and the shoreline we were working. (Please understand that there was about 150 yards behind us for them to drive through.) We had been casting large plugs, making large splashes, figure-8-ting and all 3 of us were facing the same direction leaving no doubt as to what a prudent person should assume. Anyway, as all 3 of us stopped casting and just looked at this guy (and wife/girlfriend) slowly buzzing by us, the client in the back of my boat fired a warning shot within 2 feet of his rig. They proceeded to laugh, tip up another can of beer and say hello to us as they cruised right in front of us. They dropped anchor and fished there for about 10 minutes and then went back to shore. Intentional?? Still not sure about that one. Drunk?? Probably, even though it was barely noon.

They come in all shapes and sizes. :)

[river rat 83]

This is a popular topic of discussion among folks that have fished the Allegheny in Venango County for 20 yrs + (and I'm 28). I'm not saying I own anything, simply that we have experience.

My M.O. is this:

I do not slow down for canoes / kayaks unless I can't get through. My reasoning is that they do not care where they go with respect to power boats and wading fishermen. Also, often times I need to stay on plane and if I went on and off plane as much as kayaks / canoes come through I'd be burning too much fuel and be up and down all day. I have fly fished in western PA trout rivers / streams regularly for the past 3 years and I've had way too many encounters where they have PLENTY of room but come within distance of me pushing one of them out of their craft. Some are courteous and mindful of others, but most are not. When boats slow down for me when I'm fishing, (assuming they aren't in my casting line) I wave them to speed up because usually their wake and impact is bigger than just flyin on by.

[river rat24]

HA HA. I may be wrong, but I think I may know just the person you are referring to Red. If I am correct, it's a topic for a whole new thread :rolleyes: Never thought about that either, never see him outside that stretch....hmmmm