Time for a new hobby.

[Red Childress]

My wife just found out that she is getting ready to purchase my first fly rod set-up (Christmas present) so I can hunt muskies/pike/big trout with it.....big tackle only, of course.

The only major problem I am having so far is if I should go with a St. Croix or Orvis? Or does it really matter?


Any input is welcomed.

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

You just HAD to know that you'd get some info from me. LOL Right now, I have Temple Forks Outfitters and Diamondback rods in 9wts and St.Croix and G-Loomis in 10wts. The 9wts are nice for smaller Musky/Pike flies but don't cut it for me with the 8"+ flies or bulky flies. I love the Diamondback (use those for trout rods too) but am not a big fan of the Temple Forks. The cork on the handle started falling apart almost immediately and its like casting a fly with conventional gear since its so stiff. For the 10wts, the St.Croix is my favorite by far. It casts all the flies I have without too much of an issue. Id replace them all with St. Croix if I had the money. LOL I am not a fan of Orvis but its for personal reasons and not really anything to do with the quality of their products. So ultimately, I guess you're getting my vote for St. Croix. Theres also recently been some rods designed specifically for Pike/Musky. I believe one is called a Pike Sabre and the Echo Ion. I've heard very good things about both of them.

Once you get an idea of what rods you might be interested in, make sure to spend the extra cash and pick up some quality flyline. I was shocked at how much of a difference the line makes when it comes to casting these behemoth flies all day. I'm currently using Airflo lines on my 10wts and love them. I've heard good things about Sharkskin from Scientific Anglers too but have yet to try it. Will probably pick some up over the Winter.

You're gonna love this new hobby!!

[Red Childress]

I have been eyeballing the Imperial rod and will prolly pull the trigger on it and match it with a Hydros #6 large arbor reel. Thanks for the feedback!

[ttabaleulb]

Cool, I've heard great things about the Hydros reels!! Once you get into this, maybe you can give me some hints and tips on setting the hook on topwater flies as these fish have just been torturing me on that front. LOL

[ttabaleulb]

By the way, theres a show called "The New Flyfisher" on Sundays on PBS around 5 or 5:30pm. They mix it up quite a bit but fish for Pike fairly regularly and just had some Musky on the fly this past weekend. Usually not an entire episode dedicated to it, but its still pretty decent.

[Red Childress]

Since I am very inexperienced with this, I am having difficulties purchasing everything I need: line type, leaders, etc.....

Going to be spending lots of time on the phone this weekend with a few "musky on the fly" guides. I have found tons of info but just need to sift through it all.

[ttabaleulb]

I know that feeling. I was lucky early on that I got to talk to a guy out in Wisconsin who was more than happy to offer his advice. The Musky on the Fly book is fantastic too if you can find a copy to peruse. If not, let me know, I could let you borrow mine. Just a wealth of info for all stages of flyfishing experience.

Just another note about flyline. I've found that an intermediate line with a clear slow sinking tip works for just about all situations that I normally run into. I have floating lines and full sinking lines also, but never seem to use them anymore. However, I could see a full sinking line being a good addition for river fishing to help get the fly down faster in current.

People are using just about every combination you can think of for leaders. I've been using a basic 3-6' section of 30-40# mono tied to my wire bite tippet. This season I've used a pre-tied wire tippet (American Fishing Wire) that has a swivel for ease of fly changing. Its worked out rather well but I have yet to tie into a real beast with that tippet. Until then, I can't say its gonna be my go to. Good luck with the research and drop me a line if you have any questions I might be able to help with.


Jay

[Red Childress]

I might just have the same Wisconsonite in mind to call tomorrow.......Brad Bohen. He is one of the best musky-on-the-fly guys there is.

[ttabaleulb]

LOL Actually the guy I originally spoke with was Bill Sherer. He runs a website and guide service out there. Funny that you mention brad though because I actually owe him a return call because I tried gettin a hold of him a little while back and we played phone tag. He definitely seems like the go-to-guy for Musky on the fly stuff. They put out an awesome DVD not too long ago. Wow, they get into some beasts. If you could, ask him if his Musky flies are for sale on-line yet. No biggie if you forget, but that was one of the reasons I tried to contact him. That crew that he fishes with seems like a hoot!!

[Red Childress]

I will mention it to him and get back to you soon.

[ppalko]

New hobby....no you have two illnesses....muskyitus and fly rod mania. No hope.

I use a 10 wt (cabelas) and a 9 wt (Orvis) for Musky with floating saltwater taper line. Line is a huge factor in my opinion as you need all the help you can get to cast huge flies. The reel is not all that big a deal to me as long as it has a decent drag and can carry the line and backing and it balances the rod. The handle is a big deal for me (I build my own rods) and like a particular style of fighting butt and handle taper. I also add an extra large stripper guide. Casting takes practice. I've been pre-rigging flies with a short loop leader section(heavy mono) as a bite guard. I've also used multistrand coated wire (bought at the craft store).

For trout when I'm using big streamers, I use a 7 wt and here the leader becomes more of a concern as you need to balance diameter, stiffness, and strength. For river trout, a large arbor reel and a smooth drag are nice to have as you'll get some decent runs from bigger trout. Here the blank stiffness makes a difference. I have a moderately stiff rod. Stiffer rods cast in the wind better but are less forgiving in terms of breaking off fish.

I have no brand preference. (I have Orivis, St Croix, Pacific Bay, Sage) It's nice to have a good warranty. Fly rod tips are a little less durable than a musky casting rod.

[Red Childress]

Looks like the St. Croix Imperial 9ft/10wt. coupled with the Orvis Hydros #6 large arbor reel will be in Santas bag.

Let the madness begin.

[ttabaleulb]

Awesome man!! Can't wait to hear some of those early reports on the Toothy Critter action. I'll have to see how my Spring looks. I might have to book a trip with you and we can Tag-Team that river with some serious Fly action!!

[Red Childress]

Sounds great, Jay.

I have a serious learning curve to overcome first......planning on spending plenty of time in this gym this winter before/after-school practicing my casting.

[ttabaleulb]

To be honest, I'm guessin you're probably gonna be better off than I was, at least on casting those big flies and hook setting. At least you shouldn't be burdened by almost 20yrs of "bad trout habits" that you'd have to overcome!! LOL

[jah1317]

Red,

Don't forget your fly wallets! :D. BTW, I won a 9' 9wt this fall Jay so I am going to try to hunt some fish. What do you use as leader? I was thinking just straight 30# mono but was not sure. Red, good luck, I am sure that you will be posting a pic of a beast in no time!!

Jacob

[ttabaleulb]

I can certainly vouch for those Fly wallets. I have 4 of em filled with flies!! LOL Seriously though, they do a great job of storing flies with the wool inside them.

In terms of leaders, I tie the 30-40# mono (3-4' with a clear tip flyline, 4-6' for regular flyline) to the fly line and then about 12" of some sort of tie-able wire. I'm a fan of American Fishing Wire products. I've had good luck with their titanium wire and am currently about 4 months into experimenting with their Wire Bleeding Leaders which are pre-tied and include a snap lok to make fly changes a lot easier. I've had good luck with them so far. However, I did have one break on me just in the process of casting. Hoping that was a fluke, but we'll see. I did try another coated wire that kinked WAY too easily. Can't think of the name right now. All I remember is that it was green in color. LOL

Congrats on winning the flyrod!! I'm hoping to get out your way in the Spring again. If so, I'll give you a shout and we can try gettin some more fishing in.


Jay

[Red Childress]

I am hearing great things about this leader material. Does anyone have a comment about it??


http://www.tygerleader.com/

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

Thats the stuff that I had kinking/coiling issues with. However, I mainly tried using the 15# for throwing surface flies which tend to spin quite a bit during casting. I wanted the lower #-test to try and avoid causing the front of the fly to sink. It may be that the 30# and up is just fine. Also, that was a couple of years back that I tried it, could be that they have improved things since then. Just something to keep in mind. Also, I know a lot of people are using Fluoro with a lot of success. I'm still on the fence with that as I'd hate a sharp tooth or gill plate cut that line with a monster fish on the line.


Jay

[Red Childress]

If I went with Fluoro for a fly leader, I would not feel comfortable with anything less than 150#........I am betting I am going to see deeper hooked fish with the fly approach versus conventional tackle.

Will the heavier fluoro leaders (150-200#) inhibit casting or not??

[ttabaleulb]

At this point, I don't have a huge sample set of Musky caught on flies to give a conclusive statistical picture, but I personally have not had issues with deeply hooked fish. Most of the time, the fly has popped out in the net before I even get to the release tools. I hope I'm not cursing myself by saying that, but the fact that I pinch all the barbs down I'm sure comes into play there also. As you know, I'm still new to this too, so I'm learning as I go.

I have not tried fluoro on the flyrods as of yet. As I mentioned, I'm just not comfortable with it at this point. Me actually getting a good hookset into a fish has been tough enough, I'd probably cry if my line broke. LOL However, I feel that the stiffness of fluoro at that weight would probably actually help with casting these bigger flies. The main thing would be to make sure that the knot connecting to the fly allows the the fly room to move for action. I'm telling you, when some of those flies move back and forth in the water and just kind of flutter during the pause, I'm not sure how ANY fish can resist them!!


Jay

[Red Childress]

If I tied that heavy fluoro directly to the fly, the knot would have enough room for the fly to move somewhat. It is hard to cinch that thicker lb.test down super tight.

I was thinking that when the fish blows up and flares on a fly, they would be able to suck it in easier/deeper. I am happy to hear that I am wrong.

I think I will start out with fluoro and see how it goes.

[jah1317]

Jay/Red,

I have also been looking into this line for my leader material http://fishusa.com/DAM-Tectan-Premium-Plus-Monofilament_p.html. I use the 9.2 lb on steel head and it is GREAT stuff! Skinny, strong, good abrasion resistance, knot strength, I just can't say enough good things about it. I figure I could get some of the upper weights and try them out. Any thoughts on over lining a rod I.E. 10wt line on a 9wt rod to get a little bit easier casting? I have heard multiple talks on it on other boards and thought it may be an idea.... Who knows. Lastly, there is a place called the fly tyers dungeon that has good quality cheap materials for tying big flies.... you do realize that it is the next step right?

Jacob

[InTheDrift]

I don't post up here much, but just noticed the thread and wanted to give my input.

Myself and several friends have been chasing muskies with fly rods for few years now and have actually had a reasonable amount of success. Actually Red, we saw you one day this summer below Kinzua and you gave us the thumbs up!

For rods, tfo and echo make some nice sticks for the money. The bvk series from tfo is just as nice as the high end rods that cost 3x as much. Super light, with plenty of power. 10 weights are the only way to go.

Reels are not as important as in saltwater, but make sure you get a large arbor to reduce line coiling. A decent drag certainly doesn't hurt. Lamson and Ross make some nice mid level reps that will perform well for years to come.

Lines are, in my eyes, the most important part of the whole system. Shooting head style lines, such as the Rio outbound short or airflo 40+ make throwing huge flies much easier. I personally don't like the bass bug taper based pike/musky lines that are out there, but know a few guys that do. An intermediate line will serve as a good all purpose line, but a full sinker that sinks at any rate faster that 6" per second is very nice to have on rivers and when using bulky, somewhat buoyant flies.

For my leaders, I am using 60 lb mono tapering to 20 lb tippet. On the floating and intermediate lines, 6 to 8' is a good length. On the sinker, 3' is about as long as I go. 80 lb fluoro has survived enough fish that I have confidence in it, but bite-offs could certainly happen. I connect the fly with a loop knot to improve movement. I have used wire, but am not a fan of how it handles and holds up throughout the day.

Flies that have moved fish for us have ranged from bass poppers to 14" wash cloths. Plan on throwing flies 7" and up. You know the baits that move fish and will probably be suprised what is out there fly design wise that imitates conventional stuff.

Of course, you could always take me for a spin in that rocket ship of yours and we could discuss this further...Haha.

Good luck and don't forget to buy some frozen vegetables to ice your wrist and shoulder down after throwing the big stuff all day!

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

It could be that I've just been fortunate at this point with the fish that I've landed. I'm sure I'll run into some that have just completely inhaled the flies too, so its definitely a possibility.

Jacob,

I am not familiar with that line. However, with all of the different combinations I have seen being used, I'd think its definitely worth checking into. In terms of overweighting the line, I am a big fan of doing that on most of my flyrods that I feel a need to optimize my casting distance. However, my 10wts are matched with Airflo 10wt line and they cast very well. I'm finding that some of these lines that are designed for longer casting don't have a need to overweight as much as say a standard weight forward line would. Thanks for the heads up on the place to find tying material. I am still hoping to get into that this Winter.

InTheDrift,

Great info and glad to hear from some other Flyrodders out there

[Red Childress]

I can also vouch for the fly wallets too. I wish I had kept mine but I gave it to a local fly fishing friend of mine and he absolutely loves it. I guess I will have to buy another one (or two) from you Jacob...maybe we can hook up at Butler this February and make the exchange.

Inthedrift,

I vividly remember you guys drifting down a particular section of river slinging those big arse flies and thinking it was time for me to get neck-deep into the "fly side" of musky fishing. Anyway, I am planning on buying an extra spool with sinking line before Spring gets here but that plan could change after I get a response from the question below........

Do you guys think I would be better off learning how to cast with the intermediate or sinking line??

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

In my experience, the intermediate line will be easier to learn to cast. The sinking line that I have requires me to use different casting mechanics than what I use for both floating and intermediate lines. If I recall, the sinking line I have is a Cortland product. I'm guessing that there are other sinking lines out there that will be easier to cast but I have used the one so far. I will say this, after using the sinking line for a while, when I switch back to the intermediate, it feels like I'm casting a trout line and can really launch it.

[Doubleheader]

Red,
I have a 9' 8 wt Imperial St Croix I use for steelies, mostly a back-up now but it's a great value rod. The main difference between this rod and others like it in the price range and the $500-$700 rods is weight and flex. The St Croix rod will load pretty quickly which should benefit you as you won't need to make extremely long casts. I think you'd be happy with this rod, but at some point you'll surely be expanding into other options. It's inevitable with fly fishing. For reels you're going to want a large arbor reel with an excellent drag. IMHO, if this is something you're going to take seriously this is where you should invest your dollars. I have an Orvis Mirage IV in my arsenal which I love. If I was buying an Orvis reel strictly for musky I wouldn't go with anything smaller than a IV in that series. There are other manufacturers that offer excellent drags in less expensive reels. Two for sure are Lamson and Sage. They offer reels in the $200 range with excellent drags; most will have cast bodies in these price points. While I think the Orvise Mirage is a superior reel in many respects, I don't think Orvis's mid priced reels are nearly as suitable for you as some of those offered by others. Lamson's Konic cast body reel for example has the exact same drag system as their top of the line reels. That said I've never tried one but they have excellent reviews. Whatever you get you'll probably want an extra spool so you can quickly adjust sink rates. Also, I'd like to say thanks once again for taking my business associate on the river in such short notice. He had a great time.
Fred Ward

[Red Childress]

No problem, Fred......It was a pleasure fishing with you guys except the fish forgot which lure to eat! :)

After talking to the Orvis guy yesterday, I changed from a #6 to a #5 Hydros large arbor reel. I feel like I am learning a new language with this stuff!

Thanks for the info.

[ttabaleulb]

I spend the least on reels for all of my flyrod setups because the fish I normally chase will rarely if ever get me even into my backing, including Musky and Pike. However, if you plan to possibly go after some Tarpon, etc...its a good idea to have one with a decent drag system. LOL I know what you mean about learning a new language. I had a lot of learning to do just going from trout gear to Musky gear. Once you get out there and start dealing with the physics of the casting, it'll start making more sense.

From what I have been told, I am somewhat of an "unconventional caster". I guess thats what happens when you just run to the water to learn rather than watching a video or the likes. I've developed my techniques to minimize false casts. So, don't be surprised if you start to develop your own language as you get further into this voyage. Thats part of the fun.

[InTheDrift]

Red,

It's as complicated as you want to make it, but playing with all the gear can be a lot of fun.

Sinking lines are different to cast and retrieve, but they handle the big flies well. I would start with an intermediate and get a second reel or spool when you get comfortable with casting. Spools can be a pain and I prefer having a whole second rig loaded up for working deep when required, but we are floating and can't always run back upstream to rework an area with a different setup.

Rio outbound shorts are super nice and come in all different sink rates. Like I said before, they will throw a chicken-sized fly a good ways with very little effort compared to other lines that are out there.

While we are on the subject...I'm having a hell of a time keeping fish buttoned up this year. Solid strip strikes and I even follow it up with a second or even third set with the rod to bury it, but have had a few sets just come out. Is anybody else seeing a lot of this with flies? It's hard to swallow, but I get the feeling its just part of the game...

[ttabaleulb]

InTheDrift,

I'm right there with you on issues keepin the fly in those bony mouths after hookset. For me I believe its partly due to the fact that I am still developing my strip strike technique. Recently I've been trying a technique where along with the strip strike, I am also using the casting hand to pull the rod parallel to the water in the opposite direction a little. Its worked on the last couple of fish that I was able to get in the net. I'll have to keep at it to see if its gonna be my goto technique.

On another note, do you fish surface flies a lot?? If so, any advice for hooksetting on them. One of my main focuses this year was to land a fish on a topwater fly. Well, I had PLENTY of chances but came up empty on ALL of the hooksets. I'm trying to be a little more patient before I go into the set, but since these fish are so spread apart, practice has been hard to come by. LOL Just curious to see if you're having better luck with it.


Jay

[Red Childress]

While on the subject of hooksetting/losing fish, how much stretch (if any) is there with fly lines?

Many of the fish we have caught/hooked on the fly (while guiding) seem to slurp the fly instead of the normal, crushing attack. Would you guys agree or not?

Jay,

I was watching some video this morning and I noticed the guy was pulling the rod parallel to the water on the strip set multiple times.

[InTheDrift]

I don't do the topwater thing much and have yet to get a grab doing so. Like any other surface take, a long wait is probably beneficial to making sure the fish has the fly. I've actually been told to do the same with subsurface grabs too, but like you said, there aren't many opportunities to dull the nerves and I usually set quickly after a take.

Waiting for the fish to turn would surely help find some more meat, but more than a few fish have eaten the fly from behind and never turned. To be honest, I think if it is meant to be, it will happen. There are just so many little intricacies to doing this stuff with a fly that really make it so cool.

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

As a complete guess, I'd say there is quite a bit of stretch between having the mono as part of the leader and also the Flyline itself. I don't have any data to back that up, just my hunch according to the materials used to make up those items.

In terms of the strikes I've witnessed, I'd have to say mine are almost split 50/50 leaning a little toward the violent strike on the fly. However, I tend to retrieve the flies as erratically as I can most of the time. The times I usually get the subtle takes are when I'm doing just a methodical type of retrieve.

Yep, I saw a dude Tarpon fishing who was also using that same type of hook set on some TV show that made me want to give it a try. I mean this guy really puts the boots to the fish on hookset and also multiple times. Thats why I believe that I've been too "easy" on them and need to just start puttin eveything I have into that hookset. Once again, those blasted trout techniques are coming back to haunt me. LOL

InTheDrift,

I couldn't agree more! Thats why my brother is always so surprised how calm I am after missing/losing a fish. I'm always just happy that I got the action to begin with. Sure, it would be nice to land them all, but thats just not gonna happen. Thats certainly not gonna stop me from gettin right back at it and whippin that water into a froth!! LOL

[Red Childress]

Can anyone see a problem if I use 6-8 feet of 80lb. fluoro to a 1-3ft. 150lb fluoro bite tippet??

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

I'm not sure that it would be an issue. However, when building a leader, the stiffest section is usually connected directly to the flyline to help turn the fly over during the cast. If that balance is out of whack, the leader will basically fold or collapse during the cast and probably cause the fly to get tangled. However, if you have the materials on-hand, I'd give it a try. Like I said, there are as many configurations of fly leaders as there are for conventional gear. I would recommend going with as short a leader as possible. As I mentioned, I only use about 3-4' of the mono on my intermediate lines with the clear tips connected to about a foot of bit tippet.

That shorter leader helps quite a bit with casting and also not having to pull as much of the leader through the eyes when you're doing a boatside maneuver. I still have nighmares over a big (big for me is mid-40's LOL) fish lost that hit on the 8 because a knot in my leader got stuck on the last eye of the rod!! I've since changed knots and will hopefully not have that happen again!!


Jay

[Red Childress]

Since I could not wait for my new leader material to arrive before I tried casting practice, I just hodge-podged a leader together that I thought might work just to cast around in my yard today. I ended up going with 4 feet of 150 fluro tied direct to my clear fly-line then I just tied a regular leader/swivel/snap at the end of that and then a 6 inch pike fly which is the only one I own currently. I now realize that this will not work when it come time to strip cuz of the knot sticking in the guide for fig-8 stuff so I will definitely shorten the leader down to 2.5 feet or so to allow for the fig-8.

So I watched a 2 minute "how to fly cast" video on YouTube (and also took a quick nap at my local Holiday Inn Express) and then headed to the yard for my first performance...........after about 30 minutes I was getting 52-55 feet out there so I am happy for now. I think I might be able to get another 10 feet once I am standing higher above ground zero in the bow of my boat.

Last questions for now: Are you guys using a snap to attach the fly to the leader or do you have to re-tie a loop knot each time you switch flies? Are there any swivels anywhere in the leader set-up? Will I be OK in attaching a 2.5 feet of 150# fluoro directly to my fly-line and then just snap on a fly and go fish or what?? My rationale is that the longer and heavier fluro I use, the more whip (and deeper presentation relative to the water column) and further casting distance I can get.........is this accurate??

[ThreeRiversEsox]

The longer the leader that you have on an intermediate or sinking line, the less depth you'll get because the line doesn't have the chance to draw the fly down. With casting, keeping in mind you are essentially casting the flyline with the leader/fly being weightless, the longer the leader and heavier the fly the less chance you will get it to turn over. You need the fly to turn over for accurancy and maximum distance.

Lest you forget that once you put that flyrod in the boat, you will be cursed with 25-40 mph winds for the first few tries!! Glad to hear of the interest in fly chasing musky hunters.

[Red Childress]

Thanks for the reply!

Forgive my ingnorance, but if I use fluoro only instead of mono won't that help sink the fly faster since the fluoro sinks and mono floats?

In reading about what others are using for leaders, I noticed several guys using a long mono leader from the mainline and then tapering to fluoro/wire bite tippet........why have 4-6 feet of that 30-60 pound floating mono in front of the shorter, sinking bite tippet material?? Isn't there going to be a big knot to reel thru the front guide if using that longer monofilament leader in front of the bite tippet??

[ppalko]

Definitely will second the curse of the 40 MPH wind, however, in the case of using fly rods, the wind need only be 15 mph to drive you crazy and cause a few flies to act as scud missles near the boat on a cast. You'll be doing good if you only hit yourself in the head with a fly once or twice.... I use a floating line (which sinks a bit anyway) and about 6 feet of leader (40 lb maxima or so) and then attach a bit guard (about a foot to 18 inches long). The longer the leader, the harder to cast. I tend to go on the lighter side for a leader. I think a real stiff leader is going to be harder to cast. How is the leader being attached to the fly-line? There are a few options. If you use a nail-knot and coat it with epoxy, you can allow the leader to slide through the guides. I'd bet there a limts however on how heavy the line can get before a nail knot is impossible. Anything that can catch will be a diaster waiting to happen....you have enough of those with a fly rod already anyway.

It depends on my mood, but I'll pre-rig flies with a loop or leader or make a leader using a snap and swivel (heavy fluorocarbon..80 lbs or wire (I need to look up that titanium stuff) sometimes. You don't want changing flies to be an ordeal which is why I like a snap or loop. I'll bet the salt water guys have some better ideas how to make this work, especially those catching sharks.

Phil

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

First off, thats a great distance you're getting on the cast. To be honest, you normally wont need more than that. The longer the cast, the more difficult it is to get a good hookset. I probably spend most of my time casting in the 30-50' range.

Up until this year, I mainly tied my bite wire directly to my flies. Early on, I tried some small snaps but they just didn't feel reliable and they would cause the front of my surface flies to sink. However, they worked well on the streamers. Over the last couple of years, I didn't have any swivels in my leader at all because they threw the balance of the leader out of whack. Everything was a knot connection or a crimp connection. However, the bite wire I've used this year have a swivel to connect to the mono and a snap for the fly end. As I mentioned, they have worked well on the fish that I landed on them so far. But i have yet to tangle with a real heavy fish with them. That will be the true test.

You could probably get away with a 2.5' leader but I'd still recommend 3-4' plus the tipett. If you haven't learned it yet, I'd look into tying a nail-knot. The diameter after being tied is about the same as your flyline. Once you get the knot tied, put some fly-head cement (or something similar) over the knot to round it off. After it sets, you should be able to run that through the rod guides with no issues. It takes a little practice to get everything just right, but it works out pretty well. That knot also works great as an indicator when you're fishing in low light conditions. You can hear/feel the "tick" of it passing through the guide and you know its time for the figure-8.

SOunds like you're ready to get into some fish already. I'd take that setup to the water and start flailing away. No better feedback on your setup than a fish (any fish) comin up and smackin that fly!! LOL

[ttabaleulb]

Here is a link to the bite wire that I have been using for this season. Of course its the leader without the hook attached to it. LOL Although know that I think about it, this could be a way to tie some flies with the leader already incorporated. Hmm

http://www.americanfishingwire.com/bleedingleaders.asp

[Red Childress]

Jay,

You said, "You could probably get away with a 2.5' leader but I'd still recommend 3-4' plus the tipett."

What is the reason for suggesting I should go with a longer leader that is already coming off a clear fly line?? I was thinking about just connecting my fluoro to the fly line and making that my bite tippet......no knots to reel thru the guides just the loop knot that connects the fly line to the fluoro then a snap to connect my flies on the business end. Once I strip down to the loop knot (or whatever knot you guys suggest I tie), that signifies it is time for a fig-8 and re-cast. (Remember, I just learned how to cast 18 hours ago!)

I am concerned about having 3-4 feet plus the tipett when it comes time to fig-8........how are you guys managing to do a decent fig-8 with 4+ feet of line hanging off your rod??

[InTheDrift]

Red: The only issue you may have with the heavy leaders would be actually breaking the fly line on a snag. Most fly line cores on bigger lines break at around 30 pounds, so I try to keep my system around that. Most of the time, its not a concern, but I would hate to have to climb a tree to save a fly line! You can put a lot of pressure on a fish with 25 lb fluoro, but a few fish this weekend had me considering going heavier...

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j336/inthedrift1/1321885455-picsay.jpg
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j336/inthedrift1/1321885477-picsay.jpg
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j336/inthedrift1/1321885505-picsay.jpg

[ppalko]

http://www.flyfishsaltwaters.com/big_sharks_on_the_fly_rod.htm

Completely agree with the issue of breaking the fly-line on a snag if you're using 150 # leader. Fly line is a little expensive. The guys catching sharks use a much lighter tippet. Part of the skill to be learned will be how to actually land a musky once you hook it. I seem to recall the first steelhead I hooked on fly rod many moons ago and the shear panic that occurred as lined burned off the reel.....The first musky I got on fly rod hit at the boat and went immediately toward my trolling motor with the line...how I ever landed the darn thing I'll never know. I probably looked like I was trying to land a whale even though the fish was around 30 inches.

try landing carp on 3x tippet.....humbling experience at best.

Phil

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

The length and stiffness of the leader come into play in the presentation of the fly on the cast. Sure, you could have just a couple of feet of leader but the cast will probably hit the water awkwardly. For Musky/Pike, its not really a big deal. however, when it comes to shooting flies up under overhanging branches and the like, that leader helps quite a bit to turn the fly over and go those extra few feet. Its tough to explain without being able to see it in person.

For the figure-8, out of a 5' leader, I pull about 3' of that through the guides and maneuver with the remaining leader. As you can imagine, once you have too much leader out, the flyrod just doesn't have alot of spine to do an efficient Figure-8.

As I've mentioned, there are a ton of different ways to set up your gear. After you try a few, you'll start to get a feel for what you prefer and what might work best for you're style of fishing. My recommendations are just things that are working for me right now. Seems I change up a thing or 2 every season

[Red Childress]

Now I get it........you guys are pulling the knot thru the guides....makes perfect sense. Using that much mono in front of the bite tippet is to allow the fly to hit the water the "right" way.........understand that one too.

Things are making more sense now regarding the dynamics of the line and how it needs to hit the water. The only thing that keeps happening to me while casting is that my main line will wrap around the butt of the rod once I get 35-40 feet of it whipping around........my guess is that I am getting my arm too far away from my body during the cast. I am having to hold the rod up in the air so high so I can keep the fly off the ground. Does this happen to you guys sometimes??

[ttabaleulb]

Its definitely gonna take you a little bit to get used to the physics of throwin that line around, especially with big flies on it. There are a couple of casting techniques that you will benefit greatly from. They are the single and double hauls. I'd have to type a book to try and explain them. I'm sure there are videos on youtube to give you an idea of what is involved. Both of those techniques will help keep your fly off the ground because you won;t have as much line out because you will be "shooting" it instead. That will make more sense once you see a video too. LOL Personally, I use a combo/hybrid haul that uses what I call at water-haul and single haul mix. That one I'd pretty much have to show you. It ain't pretty but it gets the job done. I still end up slappin the water now and then mainly on my backcast because I am either getting lazy or tired with the casting.

Another product to have that will help with casting is a line dressing/cleaning material. Its quite amazing how dirty your line gets in just a few hours worth of fishing. Hit it with the dressing and the line just flies through the guides. First couple of years I chased Musky, I didn't use that stuff. Now, I wouldn't want to be without it.

[Red Childress]

I have a few clients who like to hit the water while casting to increase the weight of the fly. I have a feeling that I am already "hauling" while I cast. I am getting together with a fly guy on Wednesday so I can melt his eardrums with all my questions.

[ppalko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkrLF17ubNg
(double hauling)

Thought this one was appropriate.

I'd love to know what hybrid casting methods I actually use considering I fish everything from a 3 wt on a brookie stream to a 10 wt on a lake.

All this "talk" is getting me fired up to tie some new flies.


Phil

[ppalko]

http://midcurrent.com/techniques/the-belgian-cast/

Here's another article....this sounds a lot like what I tend to do! Glad it has a name.

Just a thought...does anyone use a casting basket to keep line "organized"? I tend to wade and cast more than I cast from a boat but when I cast from the boat (canoe) it can get ugly if I don't pay attention.

Phil

[ttabaleulb]

Red,

Hitting the water with the fly to increase the weight on the line is what I do and I guess I call a "water-haul". it basically cuts my false casting in half. I try to do one false cast (maybe 2) into the water, use that as my "water-haul" and shoot the line where I want it. that really helps me over the long run to save the casting arm.

Thats a great double haul video!! I specifically like the part where he teaches with no rod in his hands. I think thats great practice for the rhythm!! LOL I'm gettin all fired up about this too. I might have to see if I can sneak another day or 2 on the water this weekend before Winter takes a hold!!

InTheDrift,

I almost forgot to mention, AWESOME pics man!! Along with this discussion, seeing those pictures has me about busting at the seams!! I NEED TOOTHY CRITTERS!!!

[ttabaleulb]

Phil,

I have not tried a casting blanket. Not sure I've even heard of that to be honest. I did buy a line basket that fits on my hip. I tried that thing a couple of times and it just ended up pissing me off. Apparently, my strip length is a lot longer than most people because my hand always ended up well below the lip of that thing. I found myself screwing up my retrieve because I was so worried about making sure that everything was going into the basket. At this point, I let the line lay right on the boat floor where I am casting. yes, it gets tangled now and then and yes, I step on the shit now and then too but overall it works out fairly well. If the winds start getting around 15-20mph, I find that if I can kneel in the front of the boat, it helps out big time to keep the line from flying all over the place.

Damn I love this sport!!!

[Red Childress]

About half of the fly guys I get in the boat use a stripping basket (a.k.a....5 dollar laundry basket from WalMart) with a little water in the bottom of it.

After watching some YouTube stuff last nite, I was going to paste a clip on here but I see it is already on here (Red's Fly Shop video)........getting ready to hit the yard again this morning as soon as the frost melts off to practice it. I am home again with a sick kid so I may as well do something constructive while she sleeps. :)

[ttabaleulb]

Heres some more tie-able bit wire that sounds interesting. This guy definitely seems to be a big fan of it.

Red,

Did you get a chance to get some questions answered with the fly-guys from last week?

[ttabaleulb]

Guess its a good idea if I include a link, huh? LMAO

http://www.wetieit.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=164

[Red Childress]

Sorry about the late reply.........I am finally back to work today after my youngest caught the sickness from her sister and has finally healed The stuff you guys posted here is finally making sense to me after some hands-on experimentation of my own.

Thanks for all the info, fellas! My learning curve has been drastically reduced.

[Red Childress]

I have not had a chance to watch this yet but I bet it is pretty good:



http://www.flyfisherman.com/2011/10/13/monster-magic-at-work/

[ppalko]

That looked like fun! No need to strip set on that hit.

[ttabaleulb]

Oh man, that was AWESOME!! That scenario they caught on film is exactly what makes this sport so addictive for me. Seein that fish drill the bait right there at the boat is fantastic. I'm hopin to get my own footage like that with the GoPro this year. Man I cannot wait to get out on the water!!

[Red Childress]

This Pole Dancer has some nice moves:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJT5ei8WEvQ

[ppalko]

I've started tying some. Like many musky flies, you'll need "bags" of fur to complete it. It is nice and easy to tie. The "Hang-time" is another cool pattern but it's a little harder since it needs various feathers and furs. Like buying lures, this "habit" too can become quite expensive....and I have yet to cast a fly this year.

[ttabaleulb]

You betcha!! That fly rocks! I have one season in of using that fly and got a ton of action on it. I can't wait to get that thing back in the water. I basically have one of the rods set up with one of the Pole Dancers at all times. Both Tigers and Pures seem to love those things. To be honest, I was about ready to almost give up on topwater flies for Musky until I started throwin these things. I just wasn't gettin a lot of action on the other flies I was throwing. The cool thing is that even if this thing is submerged, its still pushin A LOT of water and has great action. I've been using them with my intermediate sinking line and like to play around with that aspect of it if the fish don't seem too interested in it just being on the surface. Its a pretty versatile fly.

[ppalko]

I was thinking of Charles' Musky Angel in my post...I do want to buy and couple of the pole dancers however. My shoulder is warmed up and ready.....

[ttabaleulb]

Red, have you had much of a chance to throw any flies at the toothy critters yet this Spring? Just curious how that side of things is goin for ya. Its a good thing I got one trip in a few weeks back cause it looks like I might not get another chance to head out until the beginning of May. I think I might implode by then. I got the new 10wt setup and a few new flies that are just rarin to go. Now all I need is some time on the water!!

BTW, I'm psyched to try out the Floating Sharkskin flyline I got for that rod. I'll give a review of it once I've had some time on the water with it.

[Red Childress]

I have not used my flyrod on the water yet. It looks like I will have to wait until school is out before I can really get serious with the fly stuff via on-the-water-combat. Things are just too busy around here right now and my first fly trip is not until June so practicing in the yard will likely be the extent of it for a while. Juggling 2 kids in 2 sports at 2 different times has transformed my privately owned truck into a Taxi Service. :)

Believe me when the time comes, I will fully immerse myself into this thing and not stop until I am proficient or I have my first shoulder surgery. Please keep us posted with your results!

On a side note, we did raise 5 fish today in 5 hours, briefly got the hooks into 2 of them and subsequently lost them. We had more monster trout follows than musky follows too.

[ttabaleulb]

LOL I can certainly understand that. Thats awesome that you guys are moving some fish!

Can't remember if I mentioned what setup I bought. I got an 9' 10wt Echo Ion along with one of their Large Arbor reels. I've heard a lot of good things about those rods for Musky and Pike. AND, they are less expensive than a lot of others out there. So, I'll give my thoughts on that too when I can.

I know I've threatened it before, but this is THE year that I plan to use ONLY the Flyrod gear. So far, I have one trip in and it was all flies. We'll see how it goes when things start gettin tough. LOL