Figure-8 Adjustments

[Red Childress]

Since I primarily chase muskies on clear water bodies, I have had to make some figure-8 adjustments over the years because my conversion percentage was poor-ish. These adjustments have been both with posture and equipment. The advent of longer rods and fluoro leaders have really helped converting followers into eaters. The longer rod revolution has allowed us to lengthen our leaders while maintaining large ovals during the fig-8 which has increased hook-ups at boatside. The longer rod has really helped in keeping the fish away from the boat therefore decreasing detection by the fish at boatside. Since I usually find myself standing in the bow (higher in the air compared to the guys in the stern) of the boat, I have been able to see following fish sooner than the rest of my crew BUT the fish also see me much easier too. To help combat this problem, I have been doing much more crouching during the fig-8 process and have noticed an increase in hookups. Yes, it is a pain in the arse to bend over and extend the rod away from the boat each time the bait nears the boat but I have seen better boatside results over the past couple of years when I am disciplined enough to do it! It amazes me just how many fish we do not see at boatside (but they are there) that are just out of sight waiting to pounce, possibly.

I won't lie and say I do the crouching fig-8 every time I do not see a fish ("blind fig-8") BUT I will say that everytime I am on a big fish spot or during low light conditions, I definitely do. If we all added up the number of fish that we spook or show up while our baits are exiting the water as we are preparing for the next cast, the numbers would be significant..........significant enough to understand that if we could only convert 10% of those fish, the "bonus" fish would be worth the trouble. Especially, if one of those fish were a stud!

Out of the 42 days I have musky fished since June 1st, I would guess there were about 12 times when a fish showed up late and/or a lure was exiting or NOT in the water at all. My point is this: If we treat every cast as if there is a fish behind/under your bait and take every precaution when initiating the fig-8, we would likely catch several more muskies each year. The thing that scares me the most is missing a BIG fish that shows up late (or is spooked during a tight-to-boat fig-8) and the only way to sleep well at nite is knowing for sure that I did everything in my power to catch her........that all starts with correct repetition of a textbook fig-8 every cast.

For instance (this one stung a little), last summer I had just finished a fig-8, pulled my lure from the water and was actually talking to my client while my lure was about 2 feet above the water. After about 20-30 seconds, I look down for some reason and I see a very wide tail swishing from side to side as a real stud had already inspected my lure and was heading back down to the depths. What if I had just left my bait in the water until I was ready to make the next cast??

[gfishes]

Great post. The river is so clear compared to the lakes many of my friends fish. Dumb question, is it worth wearing camo or at least muted colors? Does a bright boat scare a fish more than a dull one? If the boats scared fish wouldn't trolling in the prop wash not work? I'm sure we have all caught a fish or at least had a follow while someone was adjusting/running the boat.
-Greg

[ttabaleulb]

Thats some interesting stuff Red. I might have to try the crouching approach too.

Its funny because I've noticed that a large percentage of fish action I get with flies are between boatside and say 15ft out from the boat. At least a higher percentage than when I was throwing conventional gear. It makes me wonder how many of those fish may have followed an earlier cast and just repositioned themselves, and/or were heading back to their ambush spot after a follow (not seen) and intercept the bait on another cast.

These fish can drive us crazy with all their tricky maneuvers. I too try and do my best to give myself the best chance at being ready when a fish finally shows up. I had a similar experience to your last example at Raystown a couple years back. I did an 8 and afterward, the bait was still bouncing on the surface as I turned away to reposition the boat. Next thing I know, there is a huge blow up at my bait. The fish missed and then just slowly glided along the boat right in front of me. Just so happen to be the biggest fish I've seen in those waters so far, of course. LOL

[Red Childress]

I will try to find find the diagram later today that shows the ratio of peripheral/vertical vision vs. the depth of the fish in the water column. To summarize, every fish has a 3D column of vision depending on their depth and eye position on their head. To a fish, it appears they live in a mirrored world created by the reflection within their own field of view. This basically means the deeper they are, the wider vertical view they have above water so by keeping the bait away from the boat, the mirror created inside this cylinder allows our movements to remain undetected. Confused yet? If I can find the diagram to post, it will be easier to understand.

Regarding clothing, I have been trying to wear clothes that break up my outline against the prevailing sky. For instance, on sunny days I have been wearing the blue/white broken cammo and on cloudy/drizzle days I have a few grayish/off-white cammo shirts. Personnally, I think the temperature of the fish has the most influence on how stealthy we must be at boatside.

Some fish just want caught....see yesterday's results. Some fish really have no intentions of eating but their curiosity gets the best of them as they half-ass follow to the boat. THESE fish CAN be caught but things have to go just right at boatside. After watching hundreds of following fish over the years, the 3 things that seem to negatively effect fish the most are: too much noise created by the rod tip, bringing the fish too tight to the boat (therefore increasing her cylindrical/vertical vision) so she sees your movements overhead and collapsing the oval when making the turns during the fig-8. The biggest reason for the collapse is poor execution with inferior equipment. Shorter rods with longer leaders really makes it tough to be stealthy due to the amount of body movement required to keep the oval smooth and wide.....especially when dealing with the short, stubby fisherperson. Again, some fish make you look like a boatside pro when encountering the 'Kamikaze' fish BUT our ultimate goal is to catch them all.

Obviously, the prop wash fish are getting caught somewhere on a fairly regular basis. Other than the fish being fairly active, speed and direction change are likely the 2 main triggers (very similar to a fig-8 response). Some of these trolling fish will follow for several hundred yards or even a mile or more before peeling off or eating the bait. Guys who use direction and speed changes with their spreads are likely getting the most action.

Regarding boat hulls or even braid colors, the main thing we have to understand is that the fish are likely looking up to feed. The amount of available light will create different shadows intensities. It probably doesn't matter what color the boat hull or line is as it will always just look like a shadow. The brighter the sun, the more pronounced the shadow is. Jump in a pool with goggles and look up at the person floating on a cushion. That is the fish's point of view. Anytime something is between the fish and the sun (other than a tranparent object....fluorocarbon), it will cast a shadow no matter the color.

Yes Jay, I agree 100% on the fish that had previously followed and then repositioning herself. It happens to us multiple times every year......a fish comes from an opposite direction at boatside and smashes our bait especially over deeper water. It happened to us 2x on LSC a couple weeks ago.

I guess until we are able to interview a musky to find out exactly what they think, we will continue to hypothesize on what the hell we think they are doing.

[Red Childress]

I made a little mistake in my explanation earlier and made the correction already.. The deeper the fish, the wider Snell's Window will be. Below are links to Snell's Window which is the cone angle of view in an aqueous environment. If the water is calm, the view will be much less distorted to the fish which is why windy days are usually better producing days than the flat calm ones or trout in riffles are easier to catch than the ones in slow moving pools.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell%27s_window

https://paracaddis.wordpress.com/tag/snells-window/

http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/underwater-photography-snell039s-window


Jay, I threw the second link in there for you. Deals directly with fly line placement during the cast and how to slip in under the radar. The radar being Snell's Window.

[ttabaleulb]

VERY cool info Red!! I seem to remember hearing something about Snells Window years ago, but never really looked into it. The way I always try to look at these fishing challenges is that the more data that we have to prepare, the better our chances will be for success.

I too have paid attention to the clothing that I wear on the boat. I've ended up sticking with greys, tans and some light blues. Have no idea if that has lead to any additional action, but I've been pretty happy with my results the last few years. Don't plan to change up much at this point.

I agree Red, the repositioning thing seems to be more noticeable in deeper water. As I've mentioned in the past, once I finally talked myself into turning my back to the shoreline and casting into deeper water, I started having a whole new set of experiences with these fish. in June, I had my second fish ever come flying up to my fly only to hit it with a closed mouth. Both times I've had this happen were over deeper water. When we finally get that Musky interview you're talking about, don't forget to ask them that one too. LOL

[Red Childress]

You are the second guy this week who mentioned the "closed mouth face bump" strike! About 23 years ago, I had a mid-30's fish head butt my bucktail 13 times during 5 consecutive casts....2 or 3 butts per cast.....and 9 or 10 of those times, it hit the tail so hard that it blew it out of the water. That is no lie. (It was on the first bucktail I ever bought.)

Anyway, even though we are casting a shadow over the fish no matter the shirt color, I still think we can be a little invisible by not wearing black, white, yellow, etc...

I have been looking for a Snell's Window as it pertains to a musky's eye placement but haven't had any luck. It would be cool to see how much of an advantage the top of the head placement vs. side of the head placement (trout)is. I do know that trout have monocular vision (like a deer) and have more difficulty with depth perception than a musky.

[ttabaleulb]

Holy crap!! That had to be pretty frustrating and hilarious all at the same time! I really wonder if they use that as kind of a stun tactic. If I had the sense about me when it happens, I'd love to just stop the retrieve and let the bait hang for a bit and see if the fish comes back on it. The two times I've seen it, there was no way I had my wits about me since the adrenaline was flowing like mad.

That would be awesome to be able to make some connections there. That might even help explain why changing the casting angle can get a fish to strike. SOOO many questions and so little time to be on the water. LOL

[Red Childress]

Just to clarify........


Crouching = bent over at the waist and knees bent a little. Nothing too crazy...

[gfishes]

OK, well I will have to digest that snells window and incorporate it into my float setup. This weekend was a bit frustrating. My uncle and I spent Sunday AM/PM and Monday AM on the water. The good: 30" pike (PB!) and a 32" muskie landed. The bad: 7 follows. None of them followed in far enough even to make an 8. I understand that just seeing a fish on many days constitutes a successful day. However, I can't but think presentation is somehow involved in this lack of hookup. I tried longer pauses, faster jerks etc. Didn't seem to matter. Was throwing rubber and jerkbaits.
-Greg

[ttabaleulb]

gfishes,

Congrats on the PB pike and the action you guys got. I'm with ya on the frustration of seeing fish and not being able to get them to convert. One of the things that I've changed over the last few years is the way I do my fishing trips. Early on, I would head out pretty much anytime I could for a half day, or maybe a full day if possible. That was cool to be on the water that much, but I ended up having a lot of fishless days too.

My problem was that I wasn't giving myself enough time to figure out any sort of pattern unless I got lucky enough to find fish early on. I started extending my trip length to involve 2 evenings and 2 mornings. Since I can't get to the water as often as I used to, this has really helped to give me a shot at finding times or patterns to get fish to eat. I realize that a lot of us can't afford the time and/or money to be able to stay overnight or longer to fish. The number of my trips per year has decreased significantly, but the number of fish that I catch has been the same or mainly better overall.

Like I said, I realize that this might not work for everyone. Honestly, I ended up having to do it out of necessity. I would love to be able to get on the water a lot more but its just not working out that way for now. Anyhow, good luck. I'm stuck waiting for my next trip in October, so I am living through you guys on this board and the fish until then. LOL


Jay

[gfishes]

Jay, I hear ya on the frustration. Maybe, I shouldn't be too upset. But dang, thats a lot of "not hookups" haha.

Maybe this should be a new thread but what about throw back lures? Do you toss them? I have heard mixed opinions on whether they work. I'd love to hear Red's take as well. I've always heard to throw something back completely different. Like a topwater or a soft plastic. (Mr. Whiggley?) I've never really done this practice. I generally, throw the same lure they chased in the first time.

[ttabaleulb]

Yep, you are definitely right about it being frustrated. I fished a Tiger lake near me a couple years back and had a few follows but couldn't convert. It got worse. As I continued fishing along, I started seeing Tigers at about 6 consecutive spots that had trees in the water. I couldn't get any of those fish to even look at my baits. Just seemed that I was there at the wrong time I guess.

I'm sure Red will offer his take on the throwback baits too. I always try to have a second setup with a different type of fly than what I am using for those exact situations. However, I have had more luck using the same bait that the fish followed, just fished from a different angle. Not sure if its just been a strange coincidence or what. There have been quite a few times where I've had a fish follow and I've tried throwing the other bait a few times and don't get any action. As we start to leave the spot, I switch back to original and try to get one last cast off the back of the boat and the bait gets crushed. The main difference that I can see is that the bait was traveling on a completely different path. I swear these fish do everything in their power to drive us crazy. LOL

[Red Childress]

This topic has gotten its fair share of discussion over the years and I am no closer to knowing the 'answer' than I was 25 years ago! I have seen pretty much everything work and fail. Again, I sure wish we could make a list of interview questions for these &%@!! fish! Same lure different speed, different lure slow, different lure fast, if original bait tracked straight then go back with a lateral moving bait or the opposite, lure size change, lure color change, throw back on the fish immediately or wait 5, 10, 30 minutes? Wait for an environmental change, then throw back........I have seen and done most of these with some success.

A crazy thing I have had 'good' success doing over the years is this: Right after the fish peels off and you get a bearing on which way she swam, I will pull the lure out of the water, free spool about 6 to 8 feet of line and do an overhand tomahawk-chop cast in order to make a big splash in the water as far from the boat as I can (exactly like you are trying to hit the fish with the bait) and then work the bait laterally with the rod for a few jerks while looking to see if you turned her around. (If this works, it is usually on the first tomahawk chop.) If you can get her to turn around on the first attempt, your chances really go up. I have had poor success on repeating this multiple times.

NOTE: the amount of line you can free spool and chop with is in direct proportion to the length of rod you are using. Since I use a 9' or 9'4", 7 to 8 feet is do-able for me especially if I have my arms extended in order to keep the fish as far away from the boat as I possibly can. So you have a 9 foot rod + 8 feet of line + another few feet worth of arm extension totaling nearly 20 feet. It is a quick way to get the lure back in the water but the big splash seems to turn the semi-hot to very hot fish around for another shot. Again, the temperature of the fish on the original follow will usually tell you if she is "turn-able".

The fish we banged on Chautauqua Lake last week, Andy went back with a rubber bait because that is what he had on at the time even though she had checked my similar bait 15 minutes beforehand. The question mark about that fish is: Was the fish going to eat no matter what? Did Andy's accidental hanging-up in the weedline and then popping it free in the early stages of his cast trip her trigger? Or did she just like the double tail vs the single tail that I was throwing?

Chicken or the egg, I presume. :)

[ttabaleulb]

LOL The Tomahawk-Chop, I like it. I sometimes use a similar technique on trout that are feeding on the surface. Sometimes when you plop a bait just behind them, they will turn and slam it. I never thought about trying on the toothy critters. Good stuff. Always a good thing to have another weapon in the arsenal.

[gfishes]

Are you saying to just slam/splash the bait in the area the fish took off to?

[Red Childress]

Yep. That's it. Usually not the best option for a lazy-ish fish.

[gfishes]

well it makes sense. I will have to try it. Nothing to lose

[25homes]

This is very interesting....I had 18 follows in one day before and not 1 bite and none in the 8...Honestly in last 2 months between my brother and I we have had atleast 50 follows and couldn't get any to convert on pretty clear water....We started matching our clothes to background of sky or wear camo when fishing smaller rivers to try and blend in a bit and we started doing exactly what you stated Red keep the bait Rod deeper in water and crouch....what do you know we hit our first two fish in the 8 this weekend....felt great hopefully this will continue but as soon as we started bending down and keeping 8 deeper and always try and explode high and wide in that outside turn....

[Red Childress]

Nice going man! Were you able to see the fish eat or did the crouching affect your visibility??

[25homes]

I had one head butt in the 8 I saw that didn't eat....then saw this one come in hot but kept bait low and didn't see eat but then later in afternoon one my brother got in 8 he watched eat came in hot he just sped it up into first corner and watch it smoke it!!

[gfishes]

I fish in the bow of the boat as well. I love the visibility is gives me. Unfortunately, it likely gives the fish a better view of me. I will look into wearing clothing that matches the sky. I had a pig follow in a plug this weekend, only, to turn away right at the boat...

Are you familiar with a drag chain (thick chain covered in plastic tubing)? I use the chain in addition to the trolling motor for boat control. I made it over ten years ago and haven't noticed any evidence that bass/walleye can see it. I wonder if the musky can see it?

[Red Childress]

Sounds like the same concept as the 'ole rubber coated lead balls I used to drag to slow my drift speed down when hunting trout.

In clear-ish water and in depths less than 25 feet or so, I am sure they see most everything between their location and the water's surface. I bet they heard the lead ball dragging along the bottom well before they ever saw it.