Thoughts on trolling

[musky1969]

I am really slow at work and uncle Frank won't run hot water down to the dock to slow down ice up, so here are a few thoughts for what is worth and would like some opinions. We caught 19 fish trolling outside rod got 12 fish the inside rod got 7 and the rod straight back got 2. Last year the rod off back got 9 inside got 10 and outside 8, I think this year it was more because of the type of baits then the rod position to an extent. Brian has the rod off back and did not have any squirrley tail baits and caught 2 fish, well Carol & I used the squirrelys and boated 10 out of 19 on that type of bait. Also we lost only 3 fish on the squirrleys and 8 fish on DDD, here are some photo's of the baits we used. I think it is the way you troll (follow breaks,go out to the end of the point not cut it off and the bait type you use) that makes someone good at trolling. I think it is harder to catch fish trolling then it is casting (cast weed bed catch fish :rolleyes:) I just think there is a lot more to trolling then people give credit for. I hope I get busy at work so I can stop thinking about fishing, lets hear some impute.

Darren

[Frank Walsh]

Well, your tears should be warm enough.

Interesting observation. One thing I can add is having very little success myself on the center rod this season. I'm hard pressed to think of more than two small fish total all trolling season. Not normal for me. I did not keep score on the inside vs. outside, but I'd guess a slight edge to the outside.

The squirrelly tail was a sure bet. At least two people asked about them for trolling, and I wrote them off. Felt the lack of a rear hook gave the fish way too much area to grab the lure from behind before it contacted a hook at mid-point. Stupid me. I think there was something to that tail as my production on the standard Jake seemed to diminish towards the end.

I twitch them a lot in the late summer, fall periods, but will definitely add them to the trolling roster for next season.

[Fisher]

We were up for two weekends this fall, and ended up with 7 fish. I didnt keep track of which rod caught the fish, but I do know that the middle rod caught a few. Last year and this year we have had good luck on the jointed depth raider short lined. Although they seem to get snaged a bit easier then other lures, and catch more pike. The jakes seemed a bit slow but did catch fish on them. I like Darren's comment on trolling and the difficulty that goes along with it. I would like to add, that if the wind is wipping it can be alot more difficult especially with a fish on!! One thing we changed our second trip up this year is we repeat trolled areas instead of long running of shorelines. Mainly areas with alot of points and structure close to deep water. It paid off with 2 muskies and a fat pike. We also didnt loose a fish either, we usually lose one or two. Cant wait till next fall!!

[rockpt]

I'd like to hear some thoughts on technique. Water depth, depth of lure, speed, etc. I troll steep breaking rocky shorelines in 16-22' and usually run my baits at 12-14' at 3-4 mph and often bang bottom. But I've had guys tell me that my inside rod should almost be touching the shore, which is a little too close for me, especially if there's big water crashing against the rocks. I also always go well past the point into deep water and sometimes move a little further from shore. How do the experts do it?

[Pikebob]

We noticed the inside line a bit more productive this year. Have not kept accurate track of it in the past, but I do remember the inside seemed to be better most of the time. I also agree on the trolling thing, there is a knack to it, and if not a knack, just a hell of a lot more work than the other 2 bozos do in my boat as I taxi them around the lake. For sure it reaks havoc on the nerves and eyes, constantly watching the depth, shoreline an those ever present nasty rocks that like to jump out in front of you! I hate rocks!!!! Waiting for the bozos to get boats so I can sit back and relax!

[Illinois Dennis]

Years past, seems like the inside rod usually had the advantage over the outside rod. The middle rod sitting up higher to miss the motor and running shorter to miss the other lines, well doesn't catch many fish. On occasion, the outside rod does the best- and the biggest fish.

Depending on the structure, I shoot for running speeds and line out that will contact the bottom at 1o feet. Slow up when you see a hump coming so that the baits do crash the rock but float up and not snag. If the depth goes a bit deeper for a stretch, sometimes I move in closer to shore, sometimes not. I don't change up much if you hit 15-18 feet for a short stretch as sometimes just trying to see if the fish are just off the 10 foot break, hanging. Mix it up and see where the fish are that day and try and duplicate it if the conditions don't change. Things are changing by the hour during the day, so keep that in mind as you troll.

Jakes seem to outproduce Slammers by a long shot, so I don't troll Slammers anymore. Did catch some nice fish with leaders having inline blades, but don't believe they make 100% of the difference. They tend to make the bait ride higher so I get away from them too often.

Trolling with baits that hook-up fish a high % of the time, good idea.

Those squirrly tails, I have them but didn't trol them long enough to get a fish, didn't have the faith they would hook-up as nice as jakes.

I mess with Grandmas, smaller and larger ones; also the big Jakes. Baits bigger than the 9"-10" don't seem to catch many numbers or bigger fish. Sometimes the more natural colors work best; sometimes the drab colors do all the damage.

How many times have you seen the bait so stacked up that you can't read thru it? So, I'll try baits that will run down 20-25 feet to see if there is a food chain present; still looking for a pattern there.

Trolling directions, now that is something to pay attention to. Sometimes just one direction catches all the fish. Some spots you can hit many many times and get multiple fish off of it. Sometimes it takes several passes to get just one off the spot.

If you ever are lucky enough to have a good ole buddy taxi you around the lake and you are therfor stuck with the middle rod (as your punishment), try holding the rod and keeping it horizontal and just short enough to not snag with the rods in the holders on the boat sides, you might just be surprized someday.

Lunch is over

[jimmyb]

Thinking aout it we were also considerably higher on the outside. Like 75%. Looking at my book the prior 2 years were about 70% on the inside. Interesting...

[musky1969]

After thinking about this subject I realized I have a lot to say about it, I am not saying it all now because I hate to type but I will say a little at a time.
Going through some records since 2002 tell 2008 my boat as spent about 76 days at Franks and boated 178 muskies in Oct and Nov. 7- over 50" 4 @49" 6 @ 48" 20 @45" - 47" 85 @ 40 - 44" - 50 @ 30" - 39" and 6 under 30". In 2002 we caught 29 fish in 10 days 26 casting and 3 trolling and the water temp was 36 to 42 the next year in 10 days we caught 30 fish and 6 casting and 24 trolling water temp about the same. Biggest fish always came trolling. Did not keep much records after 2003 about catching fish trolling or casting but in MY opinion you need to do BOTH no matter what the water temps. are.
One example this year trolled our usual 8-10' break line nothing then the 15'-20' break, good spot always someone needs to be here, started casting to the bank and after about 15 cast 6' from shore 50" (the same one Carol caught in other post) 44 degree water why was fish so shallow?:confused:
OK this is it for now more later.
Darren

[Illinois Dennis]

I have been thinking for some time that those offshore rigger poles to take the bait towards shore 30 feet or so, and run the baits shallower would do some serious catching at times. Man can you think how long it would take to master that mess of equipment? Same thing for Big Jon trolling boats to take the bait closer, closer than you want to take the boat. Throw in some wind and you would have a mess that would prevent you from keeping the baits moving for any length of time- hard to catch anything that way.

Yet, I think if you could pull it off, it would be very productive at times. Think of the water you could cover.

Darren, you are Muskie God II in my book! Frankee is still #1

[Frank Walsh]

I guess it all goes back to the saying, "If what you are doing is not working, you have to do something else". One thing I think most of are guilty of is next-spot-ites. We leave a proven spot, that is laden with bait fish, to hopefully find an active fish on the next spot. Some days when the fish are active, and you can do no wrong, this might work. But it probably makes more sense to assume the fish are there in the most likely place, and to figure out what they want. Or at least be there when the feeding window opens.

Often, when I'm trolling, I look at the distance from my inshore lure, to the shore, and wonder just how many fish are residing in that zone that are not seeing my lure. Darren always had a tactic of going back and casting a shoreline that should hold fish and did not produce on a trolling run, with the premise that the fish are shallower than he was able to get. I don't agree with the planner board concept. I see no way to measure or control the depth under the lure, and don't know how you can run a lure successfully, unless it's a very shallow runner. Comparing this to casting, you are still only covering one breakline, vs. straining the depths from very shallow. I am often reminded, and frequently bore you with the details, of fishing the second week of November with Brett C. and Gord. After 2 1/2 days of trolling unsuccessfully, we ultimately figured the fish were located very shallow. Probably in a foot or two of water. Another observation I've made is that when casting for fish this time of year, they are usually very "presentation specific". Meaning that if you don't show than what they want, you might as well go home. In the case with Brett and Gord, It was very slowly retrieving a Jake. Painlessly slow. If you twitched it, or reeled it any where near normally, no dice.
Other times (different trips) it was a very slow twitch and pause with a neutrally buoyant lure, and the fish took it on the dead pause.

Other times the fish go in the opposite direction. Deeper. Especially when the water temperatures dip below 40. I would say as a general rule, most of us use 10 feet as a starting point for trolling. Doesn't mean you are always trolling at 10 feet, but are attempting to. Sometimes you end up in 4, and sometimes you cannot find anything as shallow as 10 for a stretch. Half a boat width can be the difference between 4 feet or 14 feet. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Can't tell you how many fish I have seen caught when someone accidently slips up shallow. Even nail a fish when freeing a snag. When I look back at it, sometimes the first time troll a spot, crashing too shallow, was my most successful time. After I learned the structure, and started getting finessey with the shallow part, I have never been as successful. Adopting the old "Spoon Plugging" concept of straining the depths, it would make sense to take that proven spot, piled up with bait, and work the structure increasing the depths with each pass. The direction and angle of your pass can make all the difference. Can't say how many times I have just come off a pass, and nailed a fish 50 yards into heading back over the same structure in the opposite direction.

Besides depth, other things to consider when evaluating the results of rod position. Lure speed on the turns. First one to the fish. Position relative to the structure. The outside rod is not always deeper. And, of course, whatever lure you are running in a given position. Lots of variables to consider when trying to establish a pattern. Agree with Rockpt that the 3-4 mph is a good starting point. Typically going faster when the fish are more aggressive, and slower when the water temperatures drop and/or the fish are less aggressive. I am constantly changing my speeds. Often a function of turns. A large benefit of running the boat from a tiller handle. When trolling walls. I run so close that I'm afraid the tip would hit if the lure lost tension, and the rod straightened out. I don't find trolling walls all that successful. Seem the perpendicular presentation of casting the wall is more successful that the parallel presentation trolling presents. Maybe some of that is time in the fish's face.

Successful trolling is much tougher than casting. You are in the fish's face a whole lot less than with casting, using the boat to position the lures. Off a few feet, and game over. I am constantly creating a mental image of whet's under me, and how the lures ore contacting or relating to it. Wonder how the Humminbird 3D units would benefit this concept?

[Illinois Dennis]

That's always been the missconception with normal locators. If under the cone you have 10 foot AND 15 foot in range, what depth does it actual show on the screen? Looking at cone angles, you know something is going on. The bottom isn't hardly ever totally 10 foot flat, then 11 foot, etc on a most of the structure. If they had a split screen (top half and bottom half) to simutaneously show the min and max within the cone, then you would know more- like there are arches, but where? They would show up on the closest (min or max depth) line. Guess that was too hard for someone to figure out how to do so they went ahead and came out with 3D

So, I think the 3D has more prommise than we might imagine. If you SAW the fish at certain positions (10-12 foot or always on the shallowest depth), that would be very usefull info. How about that side looker feature, getting to peek up shallow? Don't exactly know how good it does, but more wow maybe.

Frank, I think you HAVE to ask Santa for a Hummingbird 3D unit for Christmas now. That's "chump change" for anyone that ownes a Ranger boat.

[Frank Walsh]

I'm guessing the bottom is the shallowest number the unit sees. Therefore the benefit of the dual frequency. I would assume the digital number indicating the bottom is somehow a calculated lowest number.

Now above the bottom must contradict this, thus explaining the fish being displayed as an arch. Here it utilizes the first and last contacts of the fish at the greatest length (hypotenuse) and displays in decreasing, to the shortest leg, then increasing again.

Now this is my wild guess at it. Hopefully someone smarter than me knows the real science here.

[dpear]

Rock and a rope.True 3D with real figures.

[rockpt]

Sounds like I need to get closer to shore. Frank's inside rod tip is almost touching the rocks and I'm usually 20-30' away.

What about leaders? Is mono better than wire or no difference? Always used wire for the rocks.

Hey Darren - Is that a perch Slammer that caught nothing? I used the same bait in minnow and shad and also caught nothing this year. Spendy baits, too. Same with my Plow. Caught most of my fish the last few years on Jakes.

[Frank Walsh]

You would be surprised how many fingers and rock piles you contact when up close on a steep wall.

I use wire and I think just about everyone else around here does. The only guys that I know use fluorocarbon on the lake are fishing deeper, clearer water up north.

I'm sure Darren will chime in on his "special" trolling leader design.

[musky1969]

3 years ago Carol and I started to experament on leaders, we run about 40" on 90# test 7 strand wire. On her leader we added a #6 silver colorado blade about 12" up from the bait, well the first 5 fish that where caught trolling was on here rod did not mater if she was on the inside or outside. Well then I thought to put on mine and I also started to have my rod go off, Brain refused to try one on he ended up catching 3 fish trolling for the 2 weeks well we boated 19. Was it because of the blades or not? The next year he also run a spinner and ended up catching 10 with 2 of them being over 50 on the middle rod. Now I try to run some deep water at times with a big beliver 25 to 30 ft. with 2 #10 blades on it, have not got nothing yet but also have not put more then 2 hours in on it trying yet. If you look at our video you will also see the blades on the leaders.

Darren

[musky1969]

My opinion on the tiller vs. steering wheel, I know Frankie loves sitting at back with his tiller while I love sitting behind my steering wheel. I am so comfortable there and while you are out there for 8-10 hours you need to be comfortable. I run with my trolling motor down and I use my front graph for my depth that way I have about 18 ft. to turn to either miss a rock (there was only one I slightly bumped with my trolling motor but with that 18 ft. before your rear engine you have time to put it in reverse before its to late)or to make sure our baits hits the inside turn or the tip of the point. I do not think I am at a disadvantage doing it like this and this was a way I was taught by my friend Perry Smith.
Darren

[Illinois Dennis]

Darren,
I too messed with inline spinner blades starting about 6-7 years ago. Some of the fish I posted of da guys came on a silver single blade on 7-stand about 18 inches up from the Superman 10" Jake. I made up some with two blades and also orange and gold blades. If memory serves me, only the silver seems to work for me.

I used to use both solid steel leaders and 7-strand; the 7-strand seems to allow more action at the bait. Like running them 3-4 feet long as well. I think a few years ago when fishing with Frank, his rods were catching fish and mine (with spinner blade) were not- and I got away from them a bit.

I too like sitting at the wheel for trolling. I know Frank is perfectly comfortable back on the stick, but I like the top up and you are out of the wind behind the windshield. No heaters or NASA plug in suits so every bit helps.

Even made a jointed 10" Jake 3-4 years back. Doesn't troll to good but what a bait for casting.

I troll the Believers but give up on them too quick I think; hardly ever a fish (maybe 1?). Have other baits that get down deeper than the Jakes that get fish when nothing else is working. Sometime when we are both in camp some fall, we should talk and compare baits.

[Illinois Dennis]

Hey Darren,
Did you hit the knobs hard this trip? Been hot in past years. Same for the mud/rock edges- you know what I'm talking about.

What has been working real well the past two years is running the dual baits, one being 3 foot up off the three way. Fish come on either bait.

Did you "rev" the baits like you were talkin about doing? That sounded good- just wondering if it caught fish this trip.

That spray that you told me about a few years ago for the lines to keep them from freezing, wow does that stuff work.

We need to get together and catch-up more.

[musky1969]

Yes Dennis the knobs had some fish going mostly small but we did have some bigger fish in the cleavage are, and we moved away from the 3 way system ( not enough baits at one time) and went to a six way system;). It was a trick old man Pearson taught us years ago one early Oct. "Rev" the baits did not do to good this year, like ya said what works one year may not work the next. Nothing on mud this year most where on that snake reef and Doppler island, goofy point was also pretty good.
Darren

[Frank Walsh]

I want some of what you two are smoking!

[Illinois Dennis]

Darren,
Those Sparkelite No 8 blades are back ordered for another 8 weeks. I know we don't need em for some time but I'm starting to think they are discontinued.

The guy at Lure Craft is just about finished with the 10" Jake mold; you need to start thinking about the colors you want for the standards poured in. He thought with the internal float, these would be neutral buoyancy to slightly floating; won't know till he pours them. Will be the same compound as the bull dawgs. He will start on the squirrel tail molds next; same thing, what colors did you want and how many?

What ever happened to those magnum rattles you added to the baits, did that work out?

[Frank Walsh]

This is starting to feel like the Twilight Zone. Either of you guys speak English? Or Earth Talk?:confused:

[Illinois Dennis]

Ya man yu can chew too. Whabada wanna eaaat son tu? Jus lookin for a bite; been trolling up a storm and not one hit yet. Thought I'd have one by now, go figure. Can't figure em out. Better check my baits.

[Frank Walsh]

Better get to the Emergency Room. You very well may be suffering a stroke.

[Illinois Dennis]

True. Been buring the candle at both ends for awhile.

I thought for sure Pearson would want to get in on the soft Jakes or soft squirrel tail Jakes.





Make another cast.....

[musky1969]

We spent our Thanksgiving experimenting on new ways to troll, different things like ICE EDGES:eek:
Darren & Carol

[dpear]

What Jakes?I'm in.

[Frank Walsh]

Where's Brian?

You call that ice?????

[musky1969]

It was pretty thick but we spent the first 2 hours breaking it apart so we could get our lines through it. Brian who??????????? Oh the guy who dose not want to take an extra day or two to fish. Dont know!!

[Illinois Dennis]

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz…. plop, plop, plop, plop, plop, plop


9,993………plop, plop, plop, plop, plop, plop, plop, plop, plop,


ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz…. 9,994……Hey, give me a piece of that jerky


9,995….. plop, plop, plop, plop, plop…………… Sara Evans……………… plop, plop, plop, plop, plop,


ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz…. plop, plop, plop, plop, plop….. Ya right


9,997………plop, plop, plop man I’m not seeing anything, not even a follow………………………………………………………spitter


Lets give this a try……..ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz… plop, plop, plop, plop, plop

9,999………ZZZZZZZZZZzzzz…. plop, plop, pause, plop, plop……

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH SOOOOOONNNNNNN…. I got Me One I got Me One I got Me One I got Me One. It’s still there. Come on. Feels like a good one, come on in you big mother. Coooommme ooonnnn you fugger. Turn the boat Turn the boat Turn the boat, that’s better. Come on in…. come to pappa. That’s it, that’s it…. Come on in. Get the net Get the net Get the net, I’ll swing it around. Get ready, move on in a bit closer. Closer. Steady, steady now. Steady….. GET IT, GO DEEPER, GET IT. DON’T HIT THE LINE YOU IDIOT…COME ON YOUR GOING TO LOOSE IT yu son a bitch. COME ON COME ON COME ON….OH SH_T LOOK OUT!!!!!!! OH, #@!*&%$#

HEY, that was close- thought you were going to screw this up; thanks for the net job.

LANDED: 70 inch x 36 inch girth (165 pounds)

Score
DENNIS- 1
DARREN- 0
(Frank- 0, ….unofficial score)

(Ps.... no rubber jakes)