Darter family for walleye

[Red Childress]

Does anyone use the Pennsylvania darter as walleye bait??

[JIM T]

Red,rod holders [trolling] on your boat,am I right in thinking they are made by DOWN EAST ? am in Colo.just anticipating the arrival of spring,have had no winter here,2" snow late last night and at 1:30pm it's already melted and gone.Do get on your site every day and try to absorb the info. Have been buying tackle and gear ,looking forward to getting the boat into the river.Am wondering if your wonderful governor will want to start charging a toll fee on the river. just ramblin' on. later, Jim T

[Red Childress]

Jim,

They are the down east Salty-10's........you might want to check out the Folbe's before doing anything. They are more easily adjusted for different rod angles and not so tough on the cork handles. The downside (from what I have read and heard) is the fact that they are plastic. Personal preference I suppose but in this climate, I went with the indestructable ones. I have not heard anyone say they were disappointed with the Folbe's.

[Chris Streich]

I did a google search on Darters to see what exactly they were. Man they are some vividly colored little buggers. I trap my own bait but i do not think i have ever come across any darters. They look like a sucker with lots of color, seems they would work wonders on walleye. Are there tons of them in the river? or are they few and far between?

[ttabaleulb]

I thought I remembered hearing something about some of the Darter's being on the protected list. Not sure which ones though.

[Red Childress]

Chris,

You will never catch them in a trap.......size 14 fly hook and a chunk of worm. They live in rocky areas primarily (sometimes weed beds along the Allegheny River watershed) and look like they have an alligator beak that is very hard. They scrape the undersides of rocks eating fly larvae.....ranging in size from 2-7 inches depending on the species. The "riffle minnies" you have heard about guys using in the river for walleye are really called a Streamline Chub........blue and red spots along its' body. They are fanastic for walleye, bass and I have caught a few trout with them too. They are also very trap shy........

Jay,

There are a few on the endangered species list including the Rainbow Darter, which just kicks butt on walleye. We even have 1 species here in Warren County that is supposedly extinct........but I have caught 2 of them that I believe to be that particular species.

[ttabaleulb]

Thats right, I thought I remembered something about the Rainbow Darter from Aquatic Biology at good old LHU!! That was a great class to help identify PA fish and macroinvertebrates.

[Red Childress]

Go Haven!

You would be very surprised to see the fish they are pulling out of Susky between Renovo and Williamsport these days. That water really cleared up from the toxic mine spill a few decades ago.

[Red Childress]

Correction......I misspoke about the darters.

The Rainbow Darter is the most common darter around here, not endangered. The Eastern Sand Darter and Longhead Darter are the ones I have caught in the River and are on the endangered species list.



It has been 10 years since I taught this topic so I did a refresher last nite.

[Red Childress]

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/endangered/endange14.htm

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/endangered/endange8.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percina_caprodes (These are the Filet Mignon for walleye.)


Most of these darters are in the Percidae Family, meaning Perch. Walleye are distant cousins to the darters.

[cband]

We have also caught the long nose darter as well as the logperch(what we call sandpikes). Excellent bait for just about anything.

[ttabaleulb]

I have heard that the West Branch had been cleaning up. I think I remember the pH being around 4.5-5 while we were doing some studies right near LHU. But, that was about 15yrs ago!! That acid mine drainage had wiped out a few waters in that area. Its great to see that they are starting to make a comeback.

[Red Childress]

Yea, they put in the dike-levee system right there at the bridge that goes to Dunnstown.......big recreation area now with concrete stand and a nice walking /running area right along the dyke

Boats everywhere with the increased depth of the water.

[Red Childress]

I have noticed a decline in many of my "old" darter areas. The last time I ventured out to catch the lognose perch, there were no darters (of any kind) present. I think it had to do with lack of weed growth in that area that particular year......at least I hope so. When my partner was teaching me the "River 101" class to me in 1995-96, he showed me all his darter areas and we caught tons of them and used them for bait. After I did extensive research on the darter and found we were using endangered/threatened species, I stopped doing it.


As a matter of fact, the largest walleye I have ever caught or seen caught were on different species of darters. The 13 pounder my client caught was on a 2 inch darter or what the locals call "brown pike", which are endangered.

[ppalko]

Best way to catch darters is the use a kick net or a seine. Another intereting fish to find will be sculpins. Some of my best fly patterns for bass and trout are most likely immitating sculpins. I'd bet French Creek, as it is the most diverse stream around, has a lot a various darters. I've had a variety of species in tanks over the years and there are quite interesting to study. Few years ago the Army Corps dropped the river about a foot rather quickly and there were puddles of trapped darters all over the place on the island below the dredge hole at the Refinery.

ppalko

[Red Childress]

I have never tried to seine them. I figured since they were so trap shy that seining them would be tough. Can you get them alone or is it a 2-man operation??

Speaking of sculpins, when I was in college we used to hit Big Pine, Little Pine, Fishing creek (in the artificial only section), Spring Creek, Slate Run, etc. using a 1-inch tube jig in motor oil color. When the water was low and clear and very tough fishing, we used to run 4lb. test and work the tube jig very erratically with the current to imitate a sculpin........man, did we get great action. For every trout we caught, we lost or rolled 5-8 fish that just did not get hooked well. It was a great way to get action during mid-day in low water. We pulled a very small treble inside the tube to make it weedless/mossless which probably inhibited us from getting the hooks imbedded well. If we exposed the hooks on the bottom of the tube, we would get "mossed" every cast.

It was amazing to see the numbers of fish scooted under the rocks in the fast water when the tube came through......everything happened so quickly that many times you would not even see the fish hit the tube. We never hit any BIG trout doing this but plenty of 10-15 inch wild browns and brookies.

[ttabaleulb]

Oh man, you're bringing back many memories with the mention of those streams. I spent a lot of time camping along Big Pine and fished Slate, Cedar, and Pine quite a bit. My first trout on a fly came from a pool just downstream from the Black Walnut Bottom campsite. I also had a lot of action with the sculpin patterns on the flyrod. Used to LOVE draggin those things around in the Fall on Fishing Creek. Caught quite a few that way. But, saw some monster browns follow with no strike. Now that I think about it, reminds me a lot of this Musky thing. LOL

[ppalko]

Seining or using a kick net (I have a D-frame net that is designed for collecting macros) is a two man job. I've never attempted to do a survey of the darter species in the river, but from this brief "conversation" I think I'll try this summer.

ppalko

[Pauleye60]

Man, talk about memories! I must have been 13 or 14 (I'm 60 now) when my Dad and Whitey Whitco would pack me up for a walleye fishing day to the "white rock" under the Ford City bridge. We would have suckers and chubs from the traps my Dad had set in Deer Creek. We fished from sundown to about 10:00 the next morning. One of my jobs was to cut a branch, tie line to it, add a no. 12 or 14 long shank hook, bait it with a a piece of crawler, and fish for "sandpike". The sandpike I caught outfished all other bait by a wide margin. We never got skunked when we could get sandpike. Man, sometimes I wish I could go back!!